Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Jul 10, 2008 10:42:20 GMT -5
Ditto, Patcat and Donnajo.
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jul 10, 2008 10:45:17 GMT -5
Outsider, misfit, loner. No question about it, that's Goren Mark II. Wasn't Goren Mark I, IMO. What we were informed early on: Goren was in on a regular poker game (male bonding); Goren had at least one smart, sharp-looking serious girlfriend (he had his chance, as Irene reminds him); Goren has any number of friends outside MCS (petrol heads, rabbis) Most of all, Goren does NOT like to fly solo - he's so attached at the hip to Eames that he throws a mini-snit (balled up paper) when she's away. His symbiotic, asexual relationship with Eames is meta-male bonding. A Lenny-Mikey thing. Heroic? Not in the sense of valor or sacrifice. He wasn't ever protective (that I could see) on a gender basis. How many women has he mentally unpeeled or simply sliced to shreds? . He was kind to children - well, that's kind of normal in our society - and he still maniputavely drilled for oil in their little brains. He was invariably kind to, and protective of, street people - then again, he was out for information. Give people what they need, and how smart is that, to show the despised poor a little kindness and respect if you want to get info? He generally despised the greedy, empathised with the needy. Well, not all the needy (empathy with the cannibalistic serial killer, dsigust for coke-bottle fetishist serial killer. Well, wouldn't we all say ewwwww to the latter? The Sherlock thing. The truth was a nice trophy, but it was the Game itself that he excelled at, revelled in , playing people in gentle and not-so-gentle ways. To me, what made Goren stand out in the crowd (but rarely apart from it) had nothing to do with being a woiunded Lone Wolf, or particular heroism, or shining moral virtue, but his acumen and his instincts and his sensationally seductive ability to Play. Not normal, exceptional. And sexy. Now, of course, he is just normal. Depressed, unilluminated, nothing much to say, physically maladroit (not slyly dissembling with those old tactical bumbles and fumbles) and isolated. Your average neurotic. Nothing special. Oh, my. What a fabulously razor-sharp deconstruction, DB. I have to let it all sink in before I can comment, except that... Not normal, exceptional. And sexy....is the pith, a space now painfully empty. AL P.S. Forgive me for being a day late to what has developed into a seriously interesting party over the last few pages.
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jul 10, 2008 10:59:13 GMT -5
To all who posted re this week's "Please Note..." I agree with those who saw a glimmer of "a blast from the past" in this episode. But let's be real about it. Either we still love LOCI and want the original CI back or we settle for what we're getting now--which is not quite the real deal. This show needs its ADA, not just three main stars. I say we boycott CI until TPTB--you know who they are--get the show back on track, including the original theme music! I, for one, am getting sick and tired of the lame stories and so-so characters. I understand your frustration R2R but I'm afraid a boycott -- if successful in absent viewers numbers -- would only get CI cancelled. Returning to the older format, with the additional actors, is simply not in the cards. USA finances CI episodes at about 70% of the old NBC budget -- and since the show averages 70% of the audience it drew upon leaving the broadcast network -- that's the only economic model that now makes sense. That USA has cut the episode order from 22 to 16 for Season 8 speaks for itself. Besides, alas, I know I'm too weak -- the flesh, the spirit, all of it -- to turn off the TiVO on Bobby Goren. ;-) AL
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Post by deathroe on Jul 10, 2008 11:39:49 GMT -5
Metella, I must agree with many of your points. I tend to enjoy things like the "Bigfoot" remark in the short term, but I must admit that they cheapen things in the long run.
It occurs to me, however, that wanting these characters back the way they were is not going to happen because that is not what the writers or the principal actors seem to want. I just wish the dialogue were a little better, honestly.
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Post by Patcat on Jul 10, 2008 11:41:19 GMT -5
If only politicians were half as civil as us (g)...
I like both Mr. Balcer's and Mr. Leight's contributions. I have to agree that Mr. Leight may have pushed things too far in one direction, but I admire him going down a different road and at least some of its results. I'm probably too sensitive about this, but I think he gets bashed sometimes too harshly. And, to stress the point, I'm a great admirer of Mr. Balcer. We have him to thank, of course, for all of this. The only thing I hold against him--and even in this case I admire some of the things that happened because of it--is the whole Nicole Wallace/Evil One going on too long.
I think I understand how some of you feel about the episodes that deal primarily with Bobby's story. I was a great fan of the X-FILES episodes that dealt with the monster of the week, but found the who UFO/who stole Mulder's sister/smoking man/government conspiracy totally boring and eventually stopped watching the show because of it.
Patcat
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 10, 2008 11:45:48 GMT -5
Metella, I must agree with many of your points. I tend to enjoy things like the "Bigfoot" remark in the short term, but I must admit that they cheapen things in the long run. It occurs to me, however, that wanting these characters back the way they were is not going to happen because that is not what the writers or the principal actors seem to want. I just wish the dialogue were a little better, honestly. Realistically I will take my Goren/Eames any way I can get them. I agree with the we're not going back opinions. I would rather have that sharpness and enjoyable writing of early seasons but having what we have now is better than having no LOCI. I know, I know....don't settle but this is the real world and most things are a compromise. I don't look at it as progress merely moving on to a different feel to the show.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 10, 2008 12:00:01 GMT -5
I think I understand how some of you feel about the episodes that deal primarily with Bobby's story. I was a great fan of the X-FILES episodes that dealt with the monster of the week, but found the who UFO/who stole Mulder's sister/smoking man/government conspiracy totally boring and eventually stopped watching the show because of it. Patcat I think the story within the story began to overshadow the main plot (and the reason I tuned in every week) in the later episodes. It almost had a soap opera feel to it. The only exception to that was when they brought in the Lone Gunmen. I loved those guys. One of the funniest moments, and there were many, was on their own short lived series when the one with the long blonde hair was breaking into a woman's apartment with his two cohorts and when he stuck his head in the door a booby trap was sprung and sprayed him in the face with a bright blue dye. After that scene the next time you saw him was standing on someone's doorstep with the other two guys and his whole face, except for where his glasses had been, was blue. Hysterical!!
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 10, 2008 12:47:42 GMT -5
I can't believe you guys are talking about the X-Files. I just emailed Susan1212 last night about it. Here is what I wrote to her. I'm not sure I've explained my mental gymnastics very well:
The creators of X-Files said that Scully's dedication and partnering with Mulder "normalized" him and made him more socially acceptable. (There is a word for this that I'm missing....)
So you might expect that the same would qualify for Eames. Although Robert has been more socially acceptable of recent time (he's not so prone to get in someone's face, or be as twitchy), Eames association with Goren hasn't "normalized" him with his peers.
And this is where I can start trotting out my "rat" list (which is really just the list I posted of all the law enforcment types that Robert has put away). With a track record like that, Eames doesn't have a hope of "normalizing" him!!
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Post by deathroe on Jul 10, 2008 13:18:47 GMT -5
quietfire--am I going to come under a lot of fire if I say that I'm not sure how abnormal Goren really is? Distinctive, yes, bright--but so are a lot of people. Also, why should Eames have to normalize him? Somebody's way of being is dependent on their own choices, hence Eames' painful "all of your wounds are self-inflicted."
Don't mind my being cantankerous *g* I must feel strongly about this, I suppose.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 10, 2008 13:35:29 GMT -5
quietfire--am I going to come under a lot of fire if I say that I'm not sure how abnormal Goren really is? Distinctive, yes, bright--but so are a lot of people. Also, why should Eames have to normalize him? Somebody's way of being is dependent on their own choices, hence Eames' painful "all of your wounds are self-inflicted." Don't mind my being cantankerous *g* I must feel strongly about this, I suppose. Perhaps Goren's drift towards normalcy is what has left some of us yearning for the before Bobby. I, for one, don't want to see a Goren who fits in or a Goren stripped of the interesting and amusing pieces of his mental make-up. The things that set each of us apart from the other are what makes us unique and in our own ways "an acquired taste".
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Post by Patcat on Jul 10, 2008 13:38:23 GMT -5
If "normal" is Patrick Copa or Mike Stoat, I go with the not normal Bobby Goren!
Patcat
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 10, 2008 13:41:43 GMT -5
If "normal" is Patrick Copa or Mike Stoat, I go with the not normal Bobby Goren! Patcat Does anyone here have an accurate definition of normal?
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 10, 2008 13:54:07 GMT -5
quietfire--am I going to come under a lot of fire if I say that I'm not sure how abnormal Goren really is? Distinctive, yes, bright--but so are a lot of people. Also, why should Eames have to normalize him? Somebody's way of being is dependent on their own choices, hence Eames' painful "all of your wounds are self-inflicted." Don't mind my being cantankerous *g* I must feel strongly about this, I suppose. Ah, but you’re one of those people who will look beneath the surface. In “real” life, how many would have the patience to get to know Goren? Perhaps instead of saying “normalize” him, I should have said give him the appearance of social acceptability – if Eames has no problem being with him, then he must be “okay”. But it hasn’t worked out that way for them. (i.e.you must know couples, one of which is wonderful and the other makes you grit your teeth) I think I just don’t have the vocab to get this across…. Are we talking apples and oranges??? Being socially benign is a quality which is looked upon favourably and won’t get you any enemies. Goren has enemies and few friends, it seems, at this point in life, so it appears he needs all the help he can get. Little does he know that we’re all here worrying about his welfare…..
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 10, 2008 14:03:09 GMT -5
If "normal" is Patrick Copa or Mike Stoat, I go with the not normal Bobby Goren! Patcat Does anyone here have an accurate definition of normal? Okay, okay, I see where this is going! Of course we don't want him to lose his distinctive qualities - that's not what I meant! Heaven forbid. And I'd be the last to group him in with Stoat and Copa and the rest of the true rats. I was just looking at it from the point of an unconventional man partnered with a down to earth (and stunningly gorgeous) woman and how that might affect the perception of the man. I sure woke y'all up! lol!
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 10, 2008 14:16:32 GMT -5
Metella, I must agree with many of your points. I tend to enjoy things like the "Bigfoot" remark in the short term, but I must admit that they cheapen things in the long run. I found the whole "wide 9" and "Big foot" play on word usage not cheap at all. At least, no cheaper than Goren boasting in Jones, "I'm a size 13" and "have a big missile in their pocket." I thought it was clever, actually. I looked up "wide 9" in the urban dictionary, but came up short. Quite a few sexually explicit definitions for wide, coupled with other words (don't ask). And you DON'T want to know what "Big Foot" means in that same dictionary. Yikes!
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