susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Oct 28, 2008 5:25:39 GMT -5
Donna - Jinx! Five, ten...you owe me a Coke!
Quietfire - I hope you are right, but if she shows up, I'll give you a call to finish the job!
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Post by Patcat on Oct 28, 2008 12:07:52 GMT -5
Some questions I still have:
Did Eames already know about the results of Bobby's paternity test before they were revealed to Ross?
When did Bobby have the test? And if he waited, why? Perhaps his therapist encouraged him?
Did someone, somewhere set Donnie's mother straight about Bobby's caring for her son?
Where is Nicole's body?
Is Bobby still in therapy?
Is Jo dead?
Did Bobby try to see Jo before she hurt herself?
Will Gage ever see the inside of a prison?
Will Bobby stay in contact with Gage?
Did Rodgers run the DNA test for Bobby, or was she the person who got the results? And if Bobby paid for the test himself and asked her to do it as a private matter, was there anything wrong about that?
If we take Gage's word that Nicole came to him (and I'm skeptical about that), did she do it because she was trying to get to Bobby? Would she have known about Gage's relationship with Bobby?
And here's one that might produce some "E-w-w-ws!" (and I confess I don't believe it myself, but it did appear in my "reptilian brain.") Is there a possibility that Gage is gay, and attracted to Bobby?
Patcat (who will hide now to avoid the bricks)
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Post by deathroe on Oct 28, 2008 14:33:03 GMT -5
These are all great questions.
In re the first one, however: wouldn't we all be very, very surprised if Eames hadn't guessed??
I always think of how adamant Eames was against elevating MFB to any kind of status in "Endgame." What was her reasoning, other than to protect Goren (possibly from finding out his paternity or some other intimate family connection with the killer)?
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Post by Sirenna on Oct 28, 2008 18:49:27 GMT -5
D'Onofrio loves being a 'messed up guy' Life is good now for Vincent D'Onofrio, but he still loves going to the dark side on "Law and Order: Criminal Intent." "I'm enjoying this very messed up guy," says D'Onofrio. During a conference call D'Onofrio tells CTV.ca that Detective Robert Goren, his character on the show, gives him perspective. "I have a lot of responsibilities, like any parent or partner in a relationship, and you know, life is good now," says D'Onofrio. "I wouldn't want to trade it for some kind of troubled life like Goren has, you know?" "Criminal Intent" is only available in Canada on CTV, and kicks off its new season Sunday. The series, which began in 2001, is the second spin-off in the "Law and Order" franchise. Unlike the other "Law and Order" shows, "Criminal Intent" focuses more on the motives of the suspects. Instead of a search for evidence, episodes follow Goren's mental journey into the murderer's mindset. The detective always then finds a way to expose them with a dramatic confrontation across an interrogation room table. While the show has always hinted at the mental disorders in Goren's family, this upcoming season will go deep into the character's backstory. Last season's shocking finale revealed that convicted serial killer Mark Ford Brody was Goren's father. The discovery went down just before Goren's mother died. D'Onofrio looks forward to how things are going to play out for the deeply psychological detective. "We have a show coming up where his mental health gets tested -- that's going to be interesting," says D'Onofrio. The 48-year-old Brooklyn native has had a long career in film and TV, with one of his earliest roles as Gomer Pyle in Stanley Kubrick's "Full Metal Jacket." In 1997 he was nominated for an Emmy for his appearance on "Homicide: Life on the Street." In 2004, D'Onofrio found himself pushed to the brink physically on "Criminal Intent," when he collapsed on the set of "Law and Order." He was diagnosed with exhaustion, which lead to the addition of a second team of detectives, Mike Logan (Chris Noth) and Carolyn Barek (Annabella Sciorra). As par for the course with the "Law and Order" franchise, no detective is ever alone on the beat. Paired up with Det. Goren is Det. Alexandra Eames, played by Kathryn Erbe. Goren and Eames both work for the "Major Case Squad," a dedicated team specialized in high-profile crimes. Erbe thinks that as Goren heads down a dark path this season, Eames will be forced to join him along the way. Last season Eames was kidnapped and is seeking the help of a therapist to deal with the trauma. "I'm getting to explore a little more emotion with this character, and it would be interesting to deal with something more angry and aggressive." Things won't get any easier for Eames this season. The premiere episode of this season the detective will be forced to look back at the murder of her husband in 1998. A recent conference call interview. Not a heck of a lot of new stuff and way too much private pyle recycled stuff but some hints as to what S8 might bring for our guy. ENJOY www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/show/CTVShows/20071005/lando_ci_donofrio_071005/20071005/"Law and Order: Criminal Intent" airs Sunday at 7 p.m. ET. Check your local listings for details.
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Post by Techguy on Oct 30, 2008 1:01:17 GMT -5
I've always assumed Frances Goren was cremated because Robert didn't want her body to decay further after being ravaged physically by cancer and mentally by schizophrenia. If Frances is in an inurnment section of the cemetery there should be room for Frank too. However he felt about his brother, Robert knew how his mother felt about Frank and I believe he buried their remains together.
As for the cost of burying Frank given Robert's financial state, what happened to the life insurance policy on Frank? Wasn't Robert the beneficiary with his alias name from Tate? Will the insurance company pay Robert Goren, and if so, he could have used some of the money to offset the burial expenses.
BTW, I assumed that Goren was going to come out of his funk, his emotional and psychological tailspin, by the end of Season 7. Based on the events in "Frame" I don't see how that is possible. And based on the traumatic events in this finale, and the fact that Donnie is still unaccounted for, I conclude that Goren's problems will continue into next season and might be part of the reason for the delay of Season 8 as I speculated about on another thread.
IF Nicole is still alive, and I hope this is NOT the case, then whose heart was in the box? If after all this it's really Donnie's heart, I don't see Goren coming out of his tailspin anytime soon, if at all.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Oct 30, 2008 6:03:59 GMT -5
I've always assumed Frances Goren was cremated because Robert didn't want her body to decay further after being ravaged physically by cancer and mentally by schizophrenia. If Frances is in an inurnment section of the cemetery there should be room for Frank too. However he felt about his brother, Robert knew how his mother felt about Frank and I believe he buried their remains together. Interesting how we all see the same thing and interpret it differently. Growing up a catholic and knowing that the Goren's were catholic, I assumed that Frances would have wanted to be buried in a grave plot, which she probably purchased years ago (as many catholics of that generation did). I think Robert would have followed his mother's wishes, regardless of how he felt about it personally. As far as Frank is concerned, I think Robert would do the same, out of respect for his mother's beliefs (and who knows, quite possibly his own). As far as affording to bury Frank, maybe he took out another loan and there was room in Frances vault for two or more. When my parents passed away, each in their own time, I found it very comforting to follow their wishes, even though I no longer had their beliefs. I think Robert would have wanted to do the same for his family. But then, that's MY interpretation! I don't think Robert would get the payout on Frank's life insurance policy, because he isn't William Brady. The insurance company would want proof of identity and saying it was an alias wouldn't cut it with them. I think Goren will get better in S8, but it would be odd for him to be totally healed after he has been through so much. His healing will probably come in small increments, as in real life, imo. [/color][/quote] I, too, hope that Nicole is really dead, but if not, the heart in the box could belong to anyone she felt like killing at the time to fulfill her purpose. How she could get her own DNA in it or somehow secure that the tests would be falsely identified as hers, is beyond me, but probably not beyond her! And why Declan would lie about killing her would be a puzzle too, unless he really does hate Robert for arresting Jo, which I doubt.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Oct 30, 2008 8:05:14 GMT -5
I thought (probably mistakenly) that if there was a headstone then the person was buried. I thought ashes weren't put in the ground but some kind of structure. Help on clearing this assumption would be appreciated.
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Post by Patcat on Oct 30, 2008 9:16:06 GMT -5
A headstone doesn't always indicate there's a body or even ashes. There are cases where a headstone is erected as a memorial when there weren't enough remains to bury.
It's now possible for observant Catholics to be cremated, although many opt for burial. That's particularly true for those of Frances Goren's generation, as noted above.
I think it's really Nicole's heart. I watched part of the rerun of FRAME last night, and Rodgers states that she ran the DNA test three times to make sure it was Nicole's heart. I really don't want to see the writers try to get out of that one.
And I just want to agree with the posters who noted how well Leslie Hendrix performed as Rodgers in this episode.
Patcat
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Post by Patcat on Oct 30, 2008 9:19:19 GMT -5
Oh, and regarding the insurance policies on Frank. I'm sure Bobby wouldn't get anything from those. William Brady doesn't exist, and Bobby knew nothing about the policies.
I must confess the most serious problem I have with FRAME's plot is that I don't know how Gage could've learned so much about Bobby. I just don't see Bobby being that close to Gage to reveal all of these things to Gage. Someone in a fanfiction (yes, I am Patcat and I read fanfiction) suggested Gage might have gotten Bobby drunk after his mother's funeral and Bobby revealed things to him. Maybe. I'm not sure.
Patcat
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Post by outerbankschick on Oct 30, 2008 17:34:23 GMT -5
I had Gage get Bobby drunk after his mother's funeral, too, but I have them having a closer relationship than we were actually shown. Kind of like old war buddies trading stories, that kind of thing. I still hope Nicole is really dead.
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fuzzytweetie
Silver Shield Investigator
Bobby's version of the "hokey pokey"
Posts: 153
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Post by fuzzytweetie on Oct 30, 2008 22:11:36 GMT -5
I think Goren turned to Declan after his mother's death (he and Eames weren't always on the best of terms then). It would have been natural for Declan to get Bobby to talk, he was his mentor (father figure) and friend. He's also very manipulative. It's obvious Bobby was blind-sided by him being the perp.
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Post by tjill on Oct 30, 2008 22:57:20 GMT -5
There is so much in this episode that is, for lack of a better word, "weird." Since this TV show, and any TV show for that matter, is a creation of the writers, I am going to try and interpret the picture they are painting. I admit some of my interpretations are as unsettling to me as they will be to others.
Nicole's Double: People were wondering why there was a stand-in. One person suggested cheapness. I hope LOCI is not that broke! I am wondering if ODA was not available to do all the scenes. Another reason could be that this was deliberately done to freak out the viewer. It unsettled me because when I caught those glimpses of what was not the real Nicole in the beginning of the show ... it made me think, "Oh no ... is it ... could it be ... her again? But there's something not right about that person. Looks like her. Is it really her? I don't think that's ODA though so how can it be Nicole ..."
Jo Biting Her Tongue Off: When we last saw Jo she made it crystal clear to Goren that she felt neglected by her father and was looking forward to her father paying as much attention to her as he did to the serial killers he interviewed in jail. Could the writers be so forgetful when we the viewers are not? So why in the world would she do such a thing and shun her father? Well, obvious answer is Jo is quite crazy, so maybe she's gone off the rails bigtime, but if that is the case, so what, why would the writers include it? Another answer could be that someone else became Daddy's Shining Little Girl. Jo never was and was hoping to be and now the competition is unbeatable. Shy, awkward, unsuccesful at the FBI, plain Jo does some killing for daddy's attention. But then Daddy is in contact with a young female sociopathic multiple murderess who is everything Jo could never be: attractive, vivacious, brilliant, outgoing, has killed much more than Jo has ... you know who I mean. (I don't want to say the name.)
Declan's Behavior. I find him to be full of it. This man is totally self-centered and obsessed with his career. He cares about nothing and no one else. How could anyone believe that he "loves Bobby like a son" and killed to "free Bobby?" Do the writers think we are idiots? If he cared so much he would have stayed in touch over the years. He has come from being a dangerous and discredited screwup in the FBI to now teaching and writing popular books. Declan likes this. A lot. Besides his obsession with his work, serial killers, he wants to be an authority, a celebrity. As Goren pointed out to him, he is not all there and is suffering some diminished capacity that will only grow in time. So did he team up with Nicole because of that? I don't think so. He's not that far gone. He is helping Nicole with the RUSE that she is dead because she must have promised him something that will add to his new acclaim. An example could be she promised to give him full information to write a blockbuster script for a movie about her life. Since she is "dead" he gets all the money and glory for being a genius when it comes to figuring out sociopaths. For Nicole, being considered officially dead equals FREEDOM.
The DNA Test. A DNA test will not work without computers. It is not like a luminol test for example where a chemical reaction tells all. It is only as good as the information in the computer. If that information was compromised, what everyone thinks is Nicole's DNA may very well not be Nicole's DNA. Why did the writers do this? Why did they base her supposed death on DNA instead of showing us her body in the morgue or in a coffin? Because there's more to come.
Why Did She Kill Frank? Is it because, as Goren thought, she wanted to take something away from him in revenge? No, I don't think so. She wanted to get rid of Frank because Frank treated her Bobby like crap and betrayed him. It will also be more convenient for her future plans to have Frank out of the way as one less reason for Bobby to stick around NY.
Why Didn't She Kill the Nephew? She didn't really want to kill him. The nephew was an attention getter. She may plan to use the nephew again to get Goren to come to her.
What Did Her Supposed Dying Declaration Mean? "Tell Bobby he was the only man I ever loved." That means she's putting her cards on the table. Goren then realized she didn't kill Frank for revenge.
Why Was Goren So Upset at the End? Goren started out in LOCI as the all-knowing, super-intuitive hero. His character has now developed into the tragic hero. Goren is in bad shape career-wise, physically (someone on the board made fun of his fat; well Goren isn't a druggie or drinker so maybe he stuffs his face instead; his escape as a kid was reading which is also sedentary), financially, emotionally, you name it. He also has NOBODY. He is a good man with a good heart and soul and he has NOBODY. (Don't tell me the old saw "maybe he has a girlfriend, who knows, they don't put the personal lives on LOCI much" because if he had SOMEBODY they would have appeared briefly in the show to support him through the tragedies.) Nicole is the tragic hero's soulmate. Ugh you say! Yes I say that too! But if she wasn't a sociopathic multiple murderer, she would be perfect for him, wouldn't she? Now Nicole has admitted her love for Goren. But how can this end? How can Goren live with himself if he were to reciprocate? Hannibal Lecter, psychiatrist, drugged and hypnotized Clarice Starling. Then before we knew it, Barney the orderly, travelling because Lecter helped him out financially, spots them together at the opera in Argentina looking like a happy, sophisticated couple. Could this happen to our Goren? Would this type of scenario be a wicked and shocking way for VDO to end his LOCI run? When they did the 2nd Lecter/Starling movie, they didn't have the guts to use the real ending. It only showed Starling letting Lecter escape. Would LOCI have the guts to pull the plug on Goren in this manner? And HOW could it be made believable? Argh. I don't wanna think about it anymore.
TO BE CONTINUED
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fuzzytweetie
Silver Shield Investigator
Bobby's version of the "hokey pokey"
Posts: 153
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Post by fuzzytweetie on Oct 31, 2008 3:12:50 GMT -5
I think Declan could "have it" for Bobby the same way Nicole "had it" for Bobby.
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Post by Patcat on Oct 31, 2008 10:44:55 GMT -5
I've a history of getting these sorts of things wrong, but I don't think Ms. D'Abo had a double in any scenes.
Jo--Perhaps her lawyers and doctors (I hope she got psych exams) kept her father away from her. Perhaps Gage refused to see her--although I doubt he could've resisted the chance if allowed. He might have stayed away to punish her in some screwy way, or maybe there were one or two meetings before Jo or Gage cut off contact.
The DNA in the computer not being Nicole's--h-m-m. An interesting possibility. Not sure I buy it, but interesting nonetheless.
Did Nicole even know of Donnie's existence?
I'm sorry--I never bought the idea of Hannibal and Clarice being together, and I believe in the idea of Nicole and Bobby far, far, far, far, far less.
Patcat
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Post by annabelleleigh on Oct 31, 2008 12:34:50 GMT -5
Tjill,
I find your deconstruction and analysis of this episode brilliant.
When Season 8 was postponed I wondered how I was going to be able to stand the speculation about "Frame" for another three months, but your posts have changed my mind.
Cogent and incisive -- a first-class writer. I now see that you registered for this board four years ago. Where have you been? ;-)
I'm looking forward to the next installment.
AL
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