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Post by trisha on Dec 4, 2009 19:58:00 GMT -5
Sorry I thought Rene left the show because the mothership needed his help. Then if Rene was still with LOCI, does that mean he was still Warren's boss? From what I recall, Mr. Balcer left CI because he disagreed with the way the budget was slashed, which included his own salary. I also recall that he was working on other projects when Dick Wolf asked him to help save Mothership. He has been in an advisory position for CI throughout, though I don't think Warren Leight asked for any help as he took the show in a completely different direction from Balcer's. And you completely misunderstood me in my earlier post. I was talking about the writers alienating half the fan base by going with soapy melodrama vs the original "why dunnit" format that most of us began tuning in for to begin with. I never gave a crap about who was writing as long as the show was good. I don't think anyone did. Was there Team Rene and Team Warren thing going on and I didn't notice? If so, can I be Team Stephanie? 'Cause I bet she sparkles. *g*
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Post by Cassie on Dec 4, 2009 21:12:31 GMT -5
I didn't misunderstand you. You feel the writers alienated some of the fans because they went soap. I heard what you said, and I agreed partly with you. I also said, I felt that they did try to compromise by leaving the relationship of Goren and Eames open for interpretation.
I still believe had Rene not left the show, we still would have been faced with alot of soap in our eyes. Even he said so.The show format had to change in order for the show not to be canceled.
We will never know where Rene might have taken us. Patcat said, she wasn't that surprised with where Warren Leight took the storyline because of his past writings. If Rene Balcer was more of a police procedure kind of writer, and asked to take Goren and Eames to Peyton Place, it may have been worst for you, or for all of us. It's just something we will never know.
I thought Rene left the show, because the Mothership needed him. You thought he left the show, because they cut his salary. Patcat said he never left the show, so if he didn't leave the show, then what was he doing? Did he have the final say or did he really have no say, like he implied in the Siren Call thread? Which in that case, it sounds like Warren Leight didn't have much say either.
And didn't Sparkling Stephanie head on over to the Mothership with Rene?
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Post by trisha on Dec 4, 2009 22:20:11 GMT -5
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 5, 2009 9:58:09 GMT -5
Thanks for the link, Trisha. Hard to distinguish fact from speculation after all of these years. Revisiting RB's interview cleared that up. Anyone following the mothership this season knows that Rene has added a few personal storylines, most notably VanBuren's cancer and new boyfriend. The reason being the new timeslot and ratings - same reasons Leight had to personalize LOCI. So far the changes have been beautifully subtle and have only added to the crime story, not intruded upon it. So I firmly believe that if Balcer had continued as LOCI showrunner, he would have limited the Goren angst and melodrama.
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Post by Patcat on Dec 6, 2009 18:19:55 GMT -5
I never intended to say that Mr. Balcer never left LOCI--He didn't leave voluntarily. I didn't dislike all of everything Mr.Leight did, but I certainly didn't react as violently as I think some people did. I thought Mr. Balcer did a splendid job with LOCI, and I thought NBC's treatment of him absymal.
Patcat ''
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Post by Jefferaldo on Dec 6, 2009 20:23:37 GMT -5
Balcer never stayed with CI after leaving. The Consulting Producer credit would have been given to him because he co-created the series.
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Post by Cassie on Dec 6, 2009 22:25:09 GMT -5
Patcat Just a gentle correction--Rene Balcer didn't come back to LOCI. I'm a little confused when you said that Rene didn't come back to LOCI, I thought you were implying that he never left the show. That he still had some say as to what was going on. Wasn't Rene responsible for the storyline of giving us Nicole's heart? For taking all of Warren's story-lines and finishing them in that episode? Didn't he come back after Warren went to HBO? I never intended to say that Mr. Balcer never left LOCI--He didn't leave voluntarily. I didn't dislike all of everything Mr.Leight did, but I certainly didn't react as violently as I think some people did. I thought Mr. Balcer did a splendid job with LOCI, and I thought NBC's treatment of him absymal. Patcat So, what I am hearing you say is, Rene was sent to the Mothership against his wishes. In the interview I heard him saying that Warren was being groomed for the job of show-runner, but the position was offered to him earlier then both men had ever expected. I don't think any person who created a character especially as unique as Goren would ever be happy with what another person did with the character. But I did notice in the interview, whenever Rene was asked about what he thought of what Warren did. He just said "no comment" I think that was gracious of him. I agree too, that some people have been extremely harsh when it comes to Warren. It's like its OK to bash Warren about his story lines and VDO about his weight. But no one is allowed to even question anything Rene ever said or did, on this board. I believe you were a Sherlock Holmes fan long before you ever meet Bobby Goren. Sherlock never caught my attention. Bobby Goren is the detective that I will always measure all other detectives against. Rene created Bobby and the one thing about the character of Bobby Goren has taught me, was never to be afraid to speak or to ask a question. I love Bobby Goren, and I'm not talking about VDO. I love the character Bobby Goren, which was given to us by Rene Balcer, Vincent D'Onofrio, Warren Leight and all the other writers of the show.
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 7, 2009 7:24:14 GMT -5
@ Cassie "Wasn't Rene responsible for the storyline of giving us Nicole's heart? For taking all of Warren's story-lines and finishing them in that episode? Didn't he come back after Warren went to HBO?"If I may answer this? Warren Leight was able to write "Frame" before he left to go to HBO. Warren (with some co-writers) are responsible for Nicole's heart in a box, Nicole murdering Frank, Declan Gage murdering Nicole, and worst of all - Mark Ford Brady being Goren's biological father. While Leight was writing all of this, Rene Balcer was actively involved trying to salvage the mothership. As far as I know, he had no imput. I'm with you, Cassie. I loved Bobby Goren, and I also don't mean VDO. Loved him more than I have ever loved any TV character. That is until he was morphed by VDO and Leight into his current depressed, morose, lumbering state. That's why I get angry with VDO, Leight and everyone else responsible, because for me, they ruined a unique and exciting character. Hopefully Goldblum will continue to impress as the interesting, clever and engaging Detective Nichols. Keeping the show focused on the crime story, with just a few hints at his personal problems. Like it used to be when I loved Bobby Goren.
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Post by lovebug on Dec 7, 2009 9:17:18 GMT -5
Regarding love for the Robert Goren character- I feel the same way as many of you. I think that's why I took the news about the "cast shake-ups" so hard. Now, don't get me wrong here, I loved the personal storylines, I just think depressed Bobby went on a little to long. I was truly hoping S9 would bring the old Bobby back. Now that we know that's not happening, I really hope the exiting characters get a proper send-off. Regarding Goldblum- I didn't warm to him as Nichols until "Major Case" but, I'm curious to see what he does with the character. Hopefully, the show will get back to focusing on the crime stories and Goldblum will bring new life to the series.
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Post by Patcat on Dec 7, 2009 10:18:06 GMT -5
Just to be clear:
Mr. Balcer didn't return to LOCI. He returned to the original series when Dick Wolf asked him to. As far as I know, I've never suggested anything else.
I don't think Mr. Balcer is above criticism. He is, after all, utimately responsible for THE VIEW FROM UP HERE, which I'm sure many people are tired of reading me criticize. As I've written, there are things Mr. Leight has done that I liked (I thought FRAME did a very good job of gathering several loose ends together.) But I freely admit that I think LOCI was better when Mr. Balcer was in charge.
I confess I am a fan of both Bobby Goren the character and Vincent D'Onofrio the actor, and one of the many things for which I'm grateful to LOCI is that it allowed me to discover this actor and his work.
Patcat
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Post by jeffan on Dec 7, 2009 15:07:27 GMT -5
Here is a pic of Jeff and Saffron taken from Fay Grim - they look good together.
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Post by outerbankschick on Dec 8, 2009 19:22:46 GMT -5
Just popping in for a moment here...
If we had been allowed a full S9 with Goren and Eames, everyone wishing for Goren to have a chance to shine again could have gotten their wish. That is the direction the character was going in S8, though USA's screw up of the episode order made that hard to see.
Goren did not end up in his depressed state overnight and it would have been ludicrous for him to be brought out of it overnight. S8 portrayed that slow climb, and given a hiatus of some months, S9 could have shown us the triumphant return of Goren's sense of himself.
Too bad TPTB didn't have sense enough to follow that through. It's a lose/lose the way they have done it, no matter how they end it. A two-part episode is not nearly enough time to do it right.
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Post by Cassie on Dec 8, 2009 22:39:16 GMT -5
@ I'm with you, Cassie. I loved Bobby Goren, and I also don't mean VDO. Loved him more than I have ever loved any TV character. That is until he was morphed by VDO and Leight into his current depressed, morose, lumbering state. That's why I get angry with VDO, Leight and everyone else responsible, because for me, they ruined a unique and exciting character. I don't think Goren was ruin. I also don't think that was the intent of Leight or VDO. I always expected Goren to climb out of his depression and becoming a stronger, greater man. That still can happen. Also I was thinking, in all fairness to Warren, and VDO I still would have to see where Rene would have taken Goren if he hadn't left the show. I need a "Great Barrier" moment. You know seeing two endings, and then picking which is the best. Hey, Rene could if he wanted to, write his own ending for the character of Goren. I know he is a busy man. But if he isn't happy with what happened to Goren. I say go for it, other artist have done it. I sure would love to read his version of what happened to Bobby, Nicole, Mama Goren, and Eames. Yeah, I think it would be rather exciting to sit down and read a LOCI story. Not a script, but an actual book and thanks Donnajo for explaining some of who wrote what.... I get more involved with the story, then who wrote it.
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Post by caitlen on Dec 9, 2009 1:25:47 GMT -5
Quote: This is why I referred to his comment as vague in a previous post. I agree, so vague it probably wont happen, just like our Vincent
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Post by Patcat on Dec 9, 2009 9:23:00 GMT -5
I'd like to have seen what Mr. Balcer would've written for Goren as well. And he may want to write a conclusion for his character (and, aside from Mr. D'Onofrio, Goren belongs to Mr. Balcer), but he may not be able to because of contractural obligations or other factors.
Patcat
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