|
Post by DonnaJo on Dec 9, 2009 11:00:46 GMT -5
Goren did not end up in his depressed state overnight and it would have been ludicrous for him to be brought out of it overnight. S8 portrayed that slow climb, and given a hiatus of some months, S9 could have shown us the triumphant return of Goren's sense of himself. Yes, but television isn't supposed to be in real time (exceptions like "24" don't count). Frances died at the end of Season 6 ("Endgame"), so after two long years, we were just seeing real recovery at the tail end of Season 8 for Bobby. As others have stating more elegantly, real life is long. It is tedious. It takes years to recover from tragedy. I did not want to travel this long, sad road to recovery with Bobby in real time. After Frances died, it is my opinion that they should have given him a few episodes to grieve, recover a bit, and get reasonably back on his feet. It isn't realistic, but it makes for more interesting TV.
|
|
|
Post by lovebug on Dec 9, 2009 13:32:07 GMT -5
DJ, you are exactly right!!!
|
|
|
Post by wilmingtonfan on Dec 9, 2009 14:03:30 GMT -5
I don't know that it was so much that it took him so long to get over his mother as adding all of the other burdens on top of it that affected him so greatly. I definitely think Season 8 could have been a great one for BG with better writers and stories. BG did not have to be so burdened (one of the biggest disservices IMO to Goren & Eames & VDO & KE). I do think that his mood improved appreciably if you watch the episodes in order (which to me gives credence to the fact they were trying to tank the Goren/Eames episodes all season long), but even so I agree it dragged on too long. I think it was one of the worst seasons of LOCI IMO. The biggest shame is that we will be left with a series where Goren's character is not really resolved in a way deserving of the quality of this show over the years and we have only the writers and execs to blame for that. ( I do agree there were a handful of good episodes, but I am speaking about the overall tenor of the season)
|
|
|
Post by idget on Dec 10, 2009 0:58:01 GMT -5
I think season 8 was about getting over his brother's murder by his mentor. I think he was well on his way to recovery over his mother's death, just look at Vanishing Act, he was really enjoying himself in that one. The first 4 filmed episodes of season 8 where about Goren's recovery from the events that happened in Frame.
|
|
|
Post by outerbankschick on Dec 10, 2009 1:03:17 GMT -5
That's probably where we differ because I would rather see the realistic portrayal of a recovery than a pretty "Hollywood" type recovery. Frances did indeed die at the end of S6 - but Frank did not die until the end of S7. The time in between was fraught with a lot of emotion for Bobby, and the time after was an upheaval such as he'd never been through before. So in reality, his life fell apart over a period of two years. Frances was battling her cancer for many months...then there was the Brady case...her death...so that's tailspin #1. Then, as he's dealing with that, with the extreme loneliness, all that...here comes Frank with his sob story about Donny...Bobby gets into hot water and ends up suspended. Tailspin #2. Then Bobby comes back to the surface, manages to recover a little bit...and WHAM! Frank's murder...and Declan's subsequent confession. Tailspin #3. IMO, giving Bobby a few months to get over all of that shouldn't have been such a contentious idea.
|
|
|
Post by idget on Dec 10, 2009 1:32:37 GMT -5
As usual OBC you can say things much better than me . Thank you for articulating what I was trying to say. I'm with you, I also don't like "Hollywood" type recovery. One of the reasons I fell in love with LOCI was because it was so anti "Hollywood". Goren was so different, but so real.
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Dec 10, 2009 7:14:47 GMT -5
I was not referring to a "Hollywood" recovery when I said that Goren should have pulled it together sooner. But spending two years watching this fine man get every conceivable tragedy dumped on him by outrageous writing wasn't, for me, a pleasant experience. My favorite (and few) moments have been when he had shown a glimmer of his former self. Too few times, and now its too late.
And yes, "Hollywood" recoveries are indeed unrealistic. So is having a serial killer as your biological father. I mean, really. How ridiculous is that? So is finding someone's heart in a box at a Bed & Breakfast. Anyone who has kept up with VDO's interviews has read more than once that he wanted to go this route - the eventual "destruction" of Robert Goren." He was able to take his character on a road of his own choosing (with help from Warren Leight). Some fans liked it, but I know many didn't.
|
|
|
Post by wilmingtonfan on Dec 10, 2009 8:05:06 GMT -5
Just a thought. I saw the first Nicole Wallace again on Monday and I am wondering if this wasn't the intent of the show from that point? That is : NW:"Obsession frequently precedes the descent into madness.....Example, Moby Dick... What precedes Ahab's descent into madness?" BG: "The unrelenting pursuit of evil."
It seems to me that Goren's descent into"madness" or at least the edge of madness, was predicted in this early episode and I believe the story would have gone this route regardless of who the show runner was -- either Balcer or Leight. Balcer is the one who introduced this idea. Certainly the show introduced more of BG's story after this point and started taking us down this road, well before Season 6 & 7.
Just something to think about.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 10, 2009 9:21:45 GMT -5
There's two events that I think had equal or greater affect on Bobby--the loss of Captain Deakins (and, I think, a confirmation for Bobby that the NYPD wasn't always a safe place for him and other good cops), and Eames' kidnapping by the daughter of his mentor. The latter may have hurt him far more than the death of his brother. His brother wasn't a good thing in his life, while Eames may be the best thing. Then, of course, Bobby had to be the instrument that reopened Eames' husband's murder case. I suspect that anything dealing with Eames hurt him far more than anything with his family, and I don't mean that this suggests Goren and Eames have any romantic relationship. Declan Gage's huge blind spot was that he ignored Eames' importance to Bobby.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on Dec 10, 2009 16:19:38 GMT -5
After Frances died, it is my opinion that they should have given him a few episodes to grieve, recover a bit, and get reasonably back on his feet. It isn't realistic, but it makes for more interesting TV. spending two years watching this fine man get every conceivable tragedy dumped on him by outrageous writing wasn't, for me, a pleasant experience...Some fans liked it, but I know many didn't. I watch a show like CI for escapism, NOT for a long drawn out psychological study of a fictional character's descent into an emotional abyss. The Goren of the Warren Leight era and beyond was no longer the imposing, intimidating, confrontational character that first drew me into the show. Far too often the New Age Goren was a weak, impotent, and ineffectual shadow of his former self. Quite frankly, watching this diminished Goren was not entertaining TV for me. Most weeks over the past few years I dreaded tuning in to a new G/E episode because I anticipated having another unpleasant depressing evening. It was at those times that I wished I had the ability to pre-screen the G/E episodes like I do phone calls on my voice mail, and selectively tune out and delete the unrelenting unwelcome and intrusive messages. I had to perform this act post hoc, and have erased most of the G/E episodes, keeping only the few I intend to watch again. As a result, I will NOT be purchasing these more recent season boxed DVD sets if and when they are released.
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Dec 10, 2009 17:30:17 GMT -5
Just a thought. I saw the first Nicole Wallace again on Monday and I am wondering if this wasn't the intent of the show from that point? That is : NW:"Obsession frequently precedes the descent into madness.....Example, Moby Dick... What precedes Ahab's descent into madness?" BG: "The unrelenting pursuit of evil." It seems to me that Goren's descent into"madness" or at least the edge of madness, was predicted in this early episode and I believe the story would have gone this route regardless of who the show runner was -- either Balcer or Leight. Balcer is the one who introduced this idea. Certainly the show introduced more of BG's story after this point and started taking us down this road, well before Season 6 & 7. Just something to think about. I'm in full agreement, otherwise, Nicole would have only appeared just this time.
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Dec 10, 2009 17:53:42 GMT -5
I'm in full agreement, otherwise, Nicole would have only appeared just this time. Not necessarily. Balcer introduced a nemesis for Goren so he could leak out small, subtle personal details via the Nicole crime story. Through those interrogations we learned about Goren's personal angst- his guilt.....his aloneness.... his birthday (hee). Not to mention the excitement of watching a strong, heroic good man go toe to toe with a beautiful, conniving, evil woman. Watching those two goad and taunt each other was a delight! ;D I believe that is why RB (and Dick Wolf) kept Nicole returning to engage Goren - because it made for good television (ratings). I can't imagine that way back in Season 2, Rene Balcer was planning the eventual destruction of Robert Goren by Nicole's hand.
|
|
|
Post by outerbankschick on Dec 10, 2009 20:23:38 GMT -5
I suppose we could go on and on debating about the angst vs. no angst, but that only leads us back to the same old same old...if a person is so disheartened with a show and the direction of the characters...why are they still watching it? Or rather, why still watch that part of the show that they don't like? Yeah, yeah. I know. Dead horse. Glue factory.
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Dec 10, 2009 20:55:43 GMT -5
Yeah after awhile both sides start to sound like Charlie Browns teacher
|
|
|
Post by maherjunkie on Dec 10, 2009 21:01:33 GMT -5
Or the Sneetches.
|
|