rune
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 62
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Post by rune on Jun 16, 2004 13:54:45 GMT -5
On another board there was a mention that Goren reading about bees in "Gemini" was probably a Holmes shout out, since Sherlock retired and became a beekeeper. Another poster once mentioned that Irene was a character in one of the books that Sherlock was attracted to -- and pointed to Irene the stockbroker in "Enemy Within."
So now I'm all curious about how many references to Mr. Doyle's work there actually are on the show. I've only read a couple of the Holmes stories, and that was quite a while ago. Does anybody know of any others?
Amazon has a "Complete" version of the stories and novels that is looking awfully tempting for the summer rerun season. Any one else care to join me in a potentially fun time-waster?
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Post by trisha on Jun 16, 2004 16:16:58 GMT -5
I read a few of the stories when I was around 13 or so, but never got around to reading them all, so I'm interested in getting into them again. I have seen some nice sets on ebay, too. Perhaps I'll put a bid on one now.
Patcat brought up another Sherlock reference elsewhere that was a first for me. Apparently Sherlock once made a mistake and was very humbled by it. It happened in, or near, the town of Croyden, and he asked Watson to whisper "Croyden" in his ear if he ever became over confident again.
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Post by Patcat on Jun 16, 2004 23:35:17 GMT -5
The Irene reference is to the short story A SCANDAL IN BOHEMIA, where the opera singer Irene Adler bests Holmes. Watson writes that "To Sherlock Holmes, she is always THE WOMAN," which has led to forests of trees being sacrificed for the paper to print essays and pastisches arguing that she and Holmes were involved. (There's no real evidence that they were, or even that Holmes had the slightest interest in her after the case.)
For me, the most obvious reference to Holmes is that Goren's character is clearly based on him. If you have the DVDs of the first season, there are interviews with Dick Wolff, Rene Balcer, and Mr. D'Onofrio speak of the fact that Goren is an attempt at a modern day Holmes.
I think there are similarities between Mr. D'Onofrio's performance as Goren and that of Jeremy Brett's as Holmes.
And I'd be happy to add more thoughts--it's pretty hard to get me to shut up regarding Holmes (g)>
Patcat
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rune
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 62
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Post by rune on Jun 17, 2004 10:01:11 GMT -5
Yay!! I'm off to order the book(s). Thanks for the references. The Croyden one is especially nice considering "F.P.S."
BTW -- For the record I'm a Patricia, too. ;D
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Post by Patcat on Jun 17, 2004 13:37:53 GMT -5
If you're considering buying a complete set of the Holmes stories, you might want to begin with the 2 volume Bantam paperbacks. These will only set you back about $12 or so. The print is rather small, though.
There's a hardback collection of all of the stories published by Doubleday, and this is the sort of standard edition.
There are all sorts of other collections of the Holmes stories. If you're really into Holmes, or if you want to read a lot of what many people have written about Holmes, I'd recommend the Sherlock Holmes Reference Library. This is an ongoing series of 6 volumes (with 3 more on the way) that contains all sorts of annotations.
Watch out for pastisches (these are Holmes stories written by people other than Arthur Conan Doyle).
All of the editions I mentioned above are available from Amazon.
Pat
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Post by janetcatbird on Jun 17, 2004 17:04:50 GMT -5
Several years ago (way back) I read the complete Holmes collection. I don't reccomend binging, but if you space them out over the summer they are enjoyable. Every now and then I'll reread certain stories, I always liked "The Speckled Band" and "The Yellow Face", which I think was the story with the Croyden reference.
I mentioned on another board that when they finally wrap up the whole E/N issue I'll be waiting for a snarky comment from Alex about "She will always be THE woman for him". But I forgot that "Croyden" was the town and the bee thing. Nice touch! I love clever little in-jokes like that.
Speaking of in-jokes for readers, the Thursday Next books by Jasper Fforde, who's brilliant. I mentioned it on the old board when Currer Bell and I got sidetracked on the Brontes. More info for those who ask.
Catbird
PS: Wow, several Patrishas! I myself have a very common name (with about 8 different spellings, so it's not unusual for it to be misspelled), you couldn't fling a dead cat in the dorm without hitting someone who had my name. This is when nicknames become useful.
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rune
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 62
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Post by rune on Jun 18, 2004 12:07:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the recommendations. I wound up ordering:
The Complete Sherlock Holmes [Hardcover] By: Arthur Conan, Sir Doyle and <br>The Bedside, Bathtub & Armchair Companion to Sherlock Holmes [Paperback] By: Dick Riley, Pam McAllister
I'm a sucker for a reasonably priced hardback and it was only a few $$ more than the paperbacks. The companion book looks to be geared toward background basics, but I'm pretty unclear on my Victorian history so I thought it might come in handy.
I doubt that "bingeing" will be much of an option. I've been so busy here lately, but if I set myself a goal to finish by the time the new season starts it should be just enough motivation...
So is chronological order the way to go? or are there any particular stories ya'll think I should read first?
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Post by Patcat on Jun 18, 2004 16:15:00 GMT -5
Rune;
There is no chronological order to the stories, although a lot of people have spent a lot of time trying to figure them out.
I'd recommend starting with the short stories in THE ADVENTURES (the first collection), then THE HOUND. A STUDY IN SCARLET was the first Holmes story, but it's really not the best.
And watch out for the BEDSIDE...it's got some errors in it.
Patcat (who really knows too much about this)
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Post by trisha on Jun 18, 2004 16:31:05 GMT -5
Catbird! I thought we were going to have another Patricia's only thread until you burst in ;D Rune, I would think chronologically would be the way to go. I'm not sure, but I imagine there were things Conan Doyle had revealed and held back to string along his fans. That's the way I plan to go through them when I get them, anyway. I have a bid in for a complete set on ebay with a few days to go on the auction. I am also in the middle of Nicholas Nickleby right now (I know how you love Dickens, Sirenna, join me, won't you ;D) So, there's hurry on my side. [ETA] Sorry Patcat, I missed your post somehow! If you say there is no method to the order, I believe you. I will still read them chronologically because, as you know, I'm just a tiny bit compulsive about order [/ETA]
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Post by Patcat on Jun 18, 2004 23:22:46 GMT -5
Well, the Holmes stories can be read in the order in which they were published, and that's not a bad way to do it. But there's no real chronology to the stories, as you'll figure out. Just trying to figure out how many times Watson was married can fry your brain (g).
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had an ambiguous relationship with Holmes. On one hand, the character made his literary name and filled his bank account. On the other, Doyle felt Holmes took attention away from his historical novels. So, it doesn't seem that he had a grand master plan for Holmes.
Patcat
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Post by Patcat on Jun 21, 2004 11:02:12 GMT -5
:oOops! I've made a mistake! In the story of THE YELLOW FACE, the story takes place near Norbury, and that's the word Holmes asks Watson to whisper in Holmes' ear when he gets too full of himself.
There is another story, THE CARDBOARD BOX, which does take place in Croydon.
Mea culpa! I'm just going to have to start taking my copy of the Holmes stories with me everywhere.
Pat
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rune
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Posts: 62
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Post by rune on Jun 22, 2004 9:21:56 GMT -5
There is no chronological order to the stories, although a lot of people have spent a lot of time trying to figure them out. <snip> And watch out for the BEDSIDE...it's got some errors in it. Patcat (who really knows too much about this) Sounds like me writing down the dates from LOCI eps even though I know they aren't supposed to make sense. So, Patcat, what kinds of errors are in the Bedside?
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Post by Patcat on Jun 22, 2004 9:40:46 GMT -5
RE. THE BEDSIDE... It's nitpicky stuff, really. For example, the book gets Jeremy Brett's birthday wrong, and it gets the publication dates of some of the stories wrong.
It's carelessness, either on the part of the authors or the publisher, or possible both.
Patcat
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rune
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 62
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Post by rune on Jun 23, 2004 16:10:36 GMT -5
Thanks, Patcat. I'll keep my eyes open.
Strangely enough I don't think I've ever seen Jeremy Brett as Holmes. I know I've seen almost every Basil Rathbone -- I think some local station must have been running them for a while when I was in high school. Could have been PBS I suppose.
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Post by dreamcatcher on Jun 29, 2004 18:02:46 GMT -5
Thanks for the correction on Croyden, Patcat! I kept thinking that Croyden was a city, but couldn't remember the story it was in. It's still a great referent between LOCI and the Holmes stories. One that I noticed was in CHINOISERIE when Goren chides George, the performance art actor playing Lord Pembridge, saying "It never occurred to you that something illegal was afoot?" I don't know for sure if the phrase "the game is afoot" ever appeared in the written texts, but it surely is a favorite line in the cinema and tv versions of the Holmes' stories. Jill
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