8:16 - "Revolution" 2009-08-09

[tjara]

Aug 15, 2009 10:30:21 GMT -5 mwendyr said:

Perhaps it's because even though she wasn't in Mad Hops or FPS, she is in the credits. She's technically "there" and so imdb probably includes that?

That's what I've been thinking, too. It would be interesting how imdb lists the people for HLOTS episodes, because I know there are HLOTS eps that Munch wasn't in but the actor was still credited.

[DonnaJo]

Aug 16, 2009 2:19:40 GMT -5 lambchop said:

Thanks for the explanation about Goren. Is this trip to the South mentioned in the episode? JG did a great job, but I still really missed Goren with Eames.

Welcome to the board, lambchop.

There is no mention of why Goren isn't around in this episode. I found that very frustrating, since Eames was working on the case & Goren is considered one of the best Detectives at Major Case. As you might already know, it was explained that Goren was in Tennessee in the other Nichols/Eames episode "Major Case."

As much as I really like Nichols, I would have liked to have seen Goren in this one too .

[mwendyr]

I think it would've made more sense if this episode had come directly after "Major Case."

I may be alone in that thought, but I think it would've made more sense to have Goren in Tennesse for two weeks in a row than have her working with them both like that.

[tjara]

I couldn't agree more, mwendyr.
It would've made more sense had they switched episodes around - I was wondering whether they'd do that when we first heard that Kathryn would be in two eps with Jeff.

But sense and LOCI season 8 seemed to go overboard because of USA

[heikimikey]

I finally made it to watch the episode. I gave it an A+ for being a worthy season finale, and a touching story despite the indifferent, pale perp - and thank you Tjara for your excellent post on the political background of the RAF. You were right about the bomb, but then again, it was common for the RAF to take many hostages in order to get people freed (they accidentially blew up parts of the (West-)German Embassy in Sweden 1975 in the attempt) and a "4th Generation" might use even a (suicidal) bomb belt. It wasn't this what disturbed me.

But with all the media-hype about the RAF that has been taken place recently (due to the fact that one of their major dickheads (pardon my french) had been released and the movie "Der Baader-Meinhoff-Komplex" about the RAF came out, even in America) I could not take Kaspers very serious and keep asking myself why it is so difficult for writers to actually do some research on the background they assign their villains to or use a subject they are more familiar with. PLUS, the RAF easily accepted "collateral damage" like killing bankers' drivers or for example the pilot of the Landshut airplaine they hijacked, but I know of no case where they killled possible confidants. They "even" regret the killing of an American soldier who solely was killed to get his ID-card in order to be able to commit an assault on the Rhein-Main-airbase....which was about the only statement of regret for a murder they have ever made.

Still, it was one of the best episodes this season. And this is what bothers me most, as stupid as it sounds. I am a diehard Goren fan and for me, it just sucks that a) I have the feeling that there was much more commitment to good episodes for JG than for VDO, in addition of the stupid episode-shuffling which almost serves as a deliberate undermining of his "hard work to make the character convincing" and b) after VDOs statement in that interview that JG will be slowly taking over more episodes so he has more time for other projects, I have the fear that the makers of the show are on the way to slowly eliminate him completely. And although I agree with patcat who said that Nichols/Eames would definitely worth it to stick to the show it would not be the same anymore.

Ohmy. Do I sound like a "drooling fangirl"? - Ye Gods......

[jeffan]

Very interesting comments about the Red Army Faction Heikimikey - so thank you.

On another point - there have been quite a few Vincent interviews recently and I think it all depends on what you choose to focus on. I don't think that he has any intention of leaving the show because he stated - paraphrasing - in his life now he needs security and comfort -

security: the paycheck from LO:CI, and
comfort: being able to go home to his wife and children each day.

That does not signify a guy who intends leaving the show in the foreseeable future.

I also believe that there has been no deliberate "dumbing down" by the writers of the G/E episodes. Would any professional writer(s) agree to such a suggestion?

Walon Green and his team had to "take over" an entrenched character, whereas Ed Zuckerman and his team had a "clean slate". I know which I think would be the most difficult.

Nevertheless, Vincent has stated he would like more free time to pursue other projects, but this does not suggest to me that - to repeat myself - he is leaving the show in the foreseeable future.

If/when Vincent ever decides to leave LO:CI it would be his decision alone and not any tactical manoeuvres to squeeze him out - remember, he did say, Dick Wolf get's it and we all understand what that means.

[maherjunkie]

Pleasing the Dickhead always comes first!

I guess if Goren didn't get run over by a car driven by a drunk Logan nothing will kill him.

[jeffan]

I was being all serious - and you've totally cracked me up MJ!

;D

[maherjunkie]

You're a balloon and I am a stickpin!

[jeffan]

LOL -

Oh yes, I have been accused in the past of being a bag of wind!

;D

[maherjunkie]

That will get you across the lake if you get tired of rowing!

[heikimikey]

Thanks for your explanation, Jeffan....and I am taking you all serious ;D

As a matter of fact - there is a lot that I do not get. I am relatively new to the VDO fan community - having solely been a "Goren" fan for the last 5 years I have to admit I did not actually take interest in VDO himself before this year.

PLUS, I have no clue on what TV-producers and makers think. I do not understand their intentions or their politics here in Germany (and the business is TINY over here compared to yours....) and although I enjoy reading all your posts on that subject still cannot figure out some things. One of them is why it should be more difficult to write scripts for a show and/or a character that is entrenched (if I professionally do this for a living) than to have the responsibility of not only writing a good story but also set up a biography for the new main character. And I think that some of the villains this season were rather pale and totally lacked any half-way understandable (or at least interesting) motive, although the story as such was pretty good (like in Identity Crisis, Major Case, Lady's Man, Salome in Manhattan......) or the other way round.

Bear with me please, if my phrasing is not always perfect. I did not think the writers messed up this season. I liked most of the episodes although I think the quality of last season was better. I just have no clue what the responsible people at the television network (if that is the correct term) intended with the shuffling - and that is where my "suspicion" on the "undermining" came from. I did not mean to blame this on the writers - I agree with you, why would they? Maybe I exaggerated a bit.......

I never thought VDO had the intention to leave. I absolutely agree with you on the subject here: LOCI is giving him the financial background to do the artistic projects he loves, but that, how did one of you put it so charmingly, are more or less "straight-to-DVD"-projects. I just did not have the impression that this was his (or Dick Wolfs') decision alone.

[jeffan]

Thanks Heikimikey for taking me seriously! Maherjunkie's sense of humour, plus the timing of her post, really cracked me up.

I only joined this forum last October as a Jeff fan but I now think outside the "box" and enjoy all four detectives' episodes.

Like you, I have no real knowledge of the behind-the-scenes, inner workings of a TV show. All that I know is what I've picked up here, especially from Annabelle's experience and insider knowledge.

I do think that G/E got the short-straw in relation to the writing teams. On saying that - I have enjoyed the majority of their episodes - as I have the N/W ones - though not all. I remember making the comment that I lowered my expectations as the series progressed.

Regardless, I still firmly believe that it is more difficult to "take over" another writer's character, especially a complicated character like Goren - his every utterance and body movement is firmly etched on the minds of long-term fans. I wouldn't even attempt to count the episode cross-referencing points made here!

I do believe that Rene Balcer left Goren more accessible for another writer to take over the character. However, Warren Leight left Goren so complicated and rent asunder - bear in mind the fans' memories - it would be difficult for any new writer(s) to cover all the bases. I believe that alot of questions from the previous season were not answered in this one.

You raised a good point - is it not to be expected that a professional writer can pick up and take off from where another writer left off - taking the above points into account - difficult - and it doesn't seem to be a success in Season 8. I've read numerous comments on the forum that the G/E writing team are not acquainted enough with his backstory - maybe that's partly the root of the problem - not doing enough homework. Perhaps, in Season 9, after the transition this season, maybe it will be more seamless.

Maybe, another TV show's fanbase would bypass such anomolies in their show - but that's not LO:CI or it's fans!

[Techguy]

Thanks for your additional information about the RAF Heikimikey, and to Tjara as well.

It's good you're relieved about the future prospects for CI. Jeffan summed it up nicely--don't put too much faith in the choppy and seemingly cryptic "translation" of the interview Mr. D'Onofrio gave recently. And yes, writing for an already established character like Goren is way different than creating a new character like Nichols from scratch. The writing for G/E could have been a lot better this season, and USA's airing episodes out of order only exacerbated Goren's character/story continuity problems. Hopefully both these issues will be remedied in Season 9.

[heikimikey]

*inasmallvoice* ahem, it was ME who did the second translation and though my French is a long time ago and cross-translating from French to German to English may not be my greatest talent on earth, I really think I made an improvement and did get VDOs statements rather well.......

On the other discussion: Somehow I have been misunderstood. I thought that writing for an entrenched character is easier than for a "blank paper" . I just had a hearty little dispute with my husband over that and he convinced me that it is not , at least not IF you care for continuity. So I back off on that one

I will keep my attitude towards lacking professional attitude of writers though, who, by the look of it, are new to the LO:CI universe and probably failed to do their homework, i.e. watching at last some of the episodes and get a briefing on the private-life-background of the main character.....and if they are not new, the worse!