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Post by janetcatbird on Feb 13, 2005 23:15:32 GMT -5
I thought it was awful convenient that they declared lockdown right as Carver and Eames got there. (Their scene in the judge's office further reinforces my belief that they get along well as professionals and that Carver enjoys working with her as a "normal" alternative to Goren.) What I did notice about the final confrontation was how they didn't do a melodramatic crossing sides, one of the guards coming over to Goren and Logan saying "You have to get through me." I'm no psych expert, but the running away to avoid the conflict seemed like a very realistic, "I can't handle this" response. (Did anyone else notice an uncanny parallell between the criminologist guard and Alberto Gonzales? Sorry, I know that's why they tack up the disclaimer but that's who I thought of.)
Isn't it amazing the different loyalties shown? The cop at the crime scene meant to protect a fellow officer, and screwed up by tampering with evidence. Logan's loyalty to his girlfriend led to his overstepping his bounds, yet the MCS loyalty to a cop they could trust led them to tweak the rules a bit. And the subhuman monster/ringleader was depending on the loyalty of his buddies to escape punishment. Just an interesting theme to me. I half expected Eames to make another comment about the "buddy boy" system, or to show a bit more empathy for the widow, but since this episode wasn't exactly focused on her, well...
And is it just me or was the nurse's accent really touch and go? I mean, even in the same sentence it seemed inconsistant to me, "fiyah" and "Dinnerrr". Course, I don't know Yankee, I can tell that "Y'all ain't from 'round here" but I can't say where they're from. In my area we actually pronounce the "r" in words (none of that Scahlett British mess), so I remember being confused by Norm Abram and Car Talk when I was little. Anyways, someone who knows the area, was she off or am I just unfamiliar?
Catbird
PS: Welcome Greeble, heck of an episode to jump in on but have fun!
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 13, 2005 23:21:54 GMT -5
The accent was funny! I am an east coast girl! My husband is from Boston! I have to listen to that eastern accent alot!!!!
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Post by janetcatbird on Feb 13, 2005 23:32:57 GMT -5
Funny-different or Funny-how-that-actress-couldn't-get-it-right?
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 13, 2005 23:41:35 GMT -5
Laughable funny. Like, make up your mind how you wanna talk! It was not a good accent. Too inconsistent.
Oh, she played a cop on Crossing Jordan. That kept throwing me a bit. I couldn't shake the association. ;D
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Post by Patcat on Feb 14, 2005 0:17:18 GMT -5
I'm sure the native New Yorkers among us can better comment on the accent of the nurse, but I thought she was going for a Staten Island accent. And that's a pretty specific accent. I agree it was a bit hit and miss.
Patcat
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Post by Observer2 on Feb 14, 2005 0:19:24 GMT -5
Metella, I’m with you. Breathless, heartpounding moments. ...Of course, they made the famous bad guy mistake, letting the good guys talk too long. If they had atatcked right away, Goren wouldn't have had a chance to talk them down. I'm not faulting LOCI; this problem is common in TV and movies - it's just not very realistic. Darmok, It’s true that it’s a common problem in TV and movies, and often is not very realistic. In this case, though, I mostly disagree. I think there was a bit of condensing/reducing of the amount of bluster we would have heard from the central bad guy. But some condensation of that kind is often necessary in television, and it seems to me that it was otherwise pretty realistic in how it played out. The central bad guy was the only fully hardened criminal. The others found themselves, suddenly, and without psychological preparation, caught between the unimaginable awfulness of being discovered and exposed, and the shocking and disturbing alternative of murdering two cops. They were used to letting the boss lead them step by step into strange but thrilling experiences; but the difference between torturing Middle-Eastern men that they could pretend were connected with terrorism and murdering New York City cops, and a woman that they knew, is not a small step... it’s a huge, dizzying leap. And then Logan, bless his pointed little head, said something psychologically effective – and in-character, to boot! A perfect piece of street psychology. First, “Okay, we understand” – i.e., yeah, we know, now you have to kill us. Which both puts it right out there in the open, and also suckers the guys into letting down their guard a little bit – “Yeah, even he sees we have to do this...” And then he hits them with the very sincere promise that one of them will die in the attempt. Oh, yeah, and reminds them of just how seriously the NYPD and DA’s office take cop-killers. “That’s what the death penalty is for.”<br> Everyone but the boss is likely to hesitate at that point, and he’s too much a bully (read “coward”) to take the lead himself. Then Goren gets the nurse talking. That’s the point when he picks the order of who he’s going to talk down first. As she describes what she’s seen, the guys start to react, and Goren is watching them. I think this scene is compelling – both well written and well acted. And Logan’s reactions were interesting. He certainly noticed when Goren started to have some success... and I liked the way he stood in front of the nurse, ready to do his best to protect her if Goren failed.
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 14, 2005 0:49:26 GMT -5
Just got through watching the episode for a second time. Just so I could get everything I might've missed first time around. ;D All in all, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. I liked how in the begining, Goren nails the uniform who found the CO's body w/pants down, for tampering with a scene. Goren likes to get to a scene while he can take in every detail of the body and circumstances of death in context -- and doesn't like the medics or other officers stepping on his evidence. So him telling that cop to "Remeber HE himself was a cop and not to disturb a crime scene," was very appropriate. The set up into the crime was well written and well woven in -- we didn't see the connection to the multiple facets of the cover up (other than the prisoner abuse) until later -- and I liked how they had the CO's using the mob inside, to put a hit on the CO in the free world. Nice touch. Goren dancing over his files strewn in the meeting room and Eames' line about playing Twister alone, brought a smile to my face. Its good to see Goren laying all his puzzel pieces out again..kinda like in SILVER LINING. Logan...*grin* glad to see he's still got his spunk, but has mellowed. It was great the way he reacted to Goren's comment about his GF. Like saying "You don't know me, buddy". When Goren told him to "Please, sit at my desk"...great example of Goren needling him again. *giggle* Eames didn't see to like Logan wanting in on the case, and she didn't seem to share her father's hero-worship of Logan's counsilman-decking episode. Maybe she doesn't suffer hotheads...she likes guys who think before they jump head first (hmmm....like Goren? *devil grin*) Then they purposely play Logan by telling him they don't need him, so he'll go find out what his girlfriend is hiding....Goren's seeing how to best use Logan...how good he is...another great scene. Okay, now I was really interested in the overall story of this case, being from inside a Federal BOP. My fiance is a correctional officer in a federal prison...so I know what goes on in there... and I was watching their portrayl of the BOP very carefully. I think they did a great job with the CO uniforms, the prison, even the lettering on the shirts was correct. I also know, the Dept of Justice frowns on media bringing out a bad rap for COs inside the prison. I told my fiance about his episode, and he said being that its fiction and not the first time Wolf has ragged on a Fed agency... it probably will get a chuckle out of some in the Dept of Justice... but some may frown on it. I think it was well done...and honestly, prisoner mistreatment is not exactly unknown to the COs in fed prisons. And, there's always that discalimer at the begining of every L&O show... The end scene in the prison was great -- lovely showing of Goren being the quick thinker that he is. When the lock-down happens and the COs are threatening them, Goren doesn't get physical (like many would think Logan would do) he takes them out one at a time...methodically picking out their weaknesses and peeling them apart -- until they thankfully can't handle the truth of their consequences. Although, I don't think Goren liked that guard tapping him back when he stepped into his personal space, like he usually trys to offset a suspect. Logan picking up that baton, and thinking about it...classic Logan all the way. The little maverick in him is still there, even with the age ( and the weight...jeeze! Noth needed some lipo suction for those bags under the eyes!). I thought the Goren/Logan interaction was very well done, each responding to the other in true character, not too over done or in your face. I was very pleased with it! Also, Kudoes to the writers for giving Carver more lines and more scenes. Good to see him out of the office. And good to see a little more interaction with Deakins. Sadly, I wish Eames would have had more interaction with Logan, but I guess more will come later. Frankly, I really liked the Logan/Goren scenes...and the one with Logan tossing Goren's psychology book was beautiful. Kinda like seeing Logan's take on Goren's whole method of working... "Eh...getting into the perp's mind. Who cares...boring." *tosses book aside on desk* I had to laugh at that...he looked like a bored 7th grader. We knew Logan isn't a why dunnit he's a "who dunit and let's nail the perp"! So that just lends more weight to the argument, that in the 11 eps in S 5 without Goren and Eames, team Logan/? is going to have to give Logan a partner who's a profiler..if they plan on keeping true to the CI heritage we've all loved. We shall see I guess. BTW, the girlfriend...yea her accent seemed a little muddled. How did she pronounce "shower?" "Sha-wuh"? She was in an old episode of the Mothership, and she played a southern trophy wife (ex stripper), married to a rich old guy, whom her leeching-mother ending up killing so she could keep her meal ticket. Good episode, she did the southern accent better there... Anyway, LOVED this episode. I would like to see more Logan and Goren interaction. And now I'm really curious about S 5. Ooo...next week, we have a Hugh Heffner knock-off! SEX CLUB... can't go wrong with and episode named that! *evil giggle*
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Post by LOCIfan on Feb 14, 2005 0:52:36 GMT -5
I liked the episode a lot, and found the final scene extremely tense. It also showed Goren at his best. He unraveled the already tattered threads of the group-think thugs with subtle, yet expert psychological acuity.
Logan worked well with G & E. And, in spite of the on-again-off-again accent (Patcat, I do think that was intended to be a Staten Island accent), I was glad there was a girlfriend in the mix. Not only did it ease Logan into the story, but it was also a nice, way to distract viewers (viewers who might be inclined to look for such things...) from searching between the lines for sexual tension between Eames and Logan. The scene between G, E, L & Aziz, the kid in the fish store was chilling.
As for the timing of the lockdown, I got the impression that the bully guards arranged for it when they heard Logan and Goren were in the facility talking to Gina. The leader's plan was to call for a lockdown, kill the cops and Gina then blame their murders on prisoners. He had reason to believe, from her earlier behavior, that she was uneasy with the situation, and might spill her guts. More later, but those are some early impressions.
Best, LOCIfan
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Post by Observer2 on Feb 14, 2005 0:53:10 GMT -5
Someone up-thread commented that Goren didn’t seem scared enough.
I couldn’t disagree more.
When the second pair of guards arrived, with the clear implication that they were about to be beaten to death, he was hit with a sickening level of fear. Listen to the change in his voice. The fact that he continued to function doesn’t mean he wasn’t afraid.
I’d never been sure until I saw this episode, but now I am. Goren has been beaten up, badly enough to be traumatizing, almost certainly when he was a kid, and most likely by an adult/authority figure, not just other kids.
As he focused more and more on getting through to the guys he was talking to, the fear was pushed into the background; but I’m stunned that anyone would say he wasn’t scared enough. I was expecting people to complain about how much his fear showed, especially with “tough-guy” Logan there for contrast.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 14, 2005 1:12:58 GMT -5
I seem to be the only annoyed senseless by Logan. Ah, NicoleMarie, you gotta be different, don't you? :::laughs at herself::::
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 14, 2005 1:27:31 GMT -5
Oh yea Observer, I totally see where you're coming from about Goren getting this look on his face when the second pair of guards come out of the side door.
Very chilling to see that change come over him, we don't get to see much gutteral fear in Bobby. It was like his brain had to click back from "trapped mode" into "analyze your captors...figure a way out" mode.
Loved the way he read the CO's like a book while Logan was giving them the facts of life for cop-killers in NYC.
I was chewing my lip during that scene...for sure!
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Post by KATIE on Feb 14, 2005 2:23:29 GMT -5
Just a Q, if guards were willing to kill one of their own, for leaving and finding a better job, how did that guy, A Z Gabriel ever get out of prison. Katie
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Post by michael on Feb 14, 2005 10:54:23 GMT -5
Nicolemarie, you're not the only one annoyed. I found Logan to be everything I don't like about other cop shows. The scene at Goren's desk showed his contempt for Goren and his methods, the main reason LOCI is the only show I never miss. I have never seen Logan in the old Law and Order shows, but he definitely wasn't needed in this episode.
Otherwise, the episode had some strong moments, but was a bit too graphic for me. My teenage kids sometimes watch with me, but I'm glad they missed this one. The death of the victim, and the explicit details of the prison abuse pushed the "gritty" aspects of the drama farther than I like (But I admit I'm conservative on those matters...)
I found Deakins' comment to Logan eerily ironic when he said that "we don't add anything by putting you on the team." (Paraphrase) As far as the show goes, I'll add an "Amen" to that...
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Post by Marie on Feb 14, 2005 11:09:53 GMT -5
Do you remember the first time you saw an episode of Star Trek? And what you thought of the costumes & cheezy sets, the toy props and rocks of papier-mache - not to mention the hammy, overstated acting..? Oh my GOD..! This is so lame! LOL! But then you started to get into it and soon, that stuff didn't matter anymore. You were able to enjoy the storytelling now, even more so the characters; for no longer reacting to the "novelty" of it all.
Ever go back and watch a show after ten years have passed? And find it's akin to visiting old friends, their mannerisms so well known to you, that they serve now to make you smile; as here comes good 'ol Mr. Spock; arching the same eyebrow he's been arching at Dr.McCoy for over 30 years. Smile. That's the benefit of setting & context and never leaving it. Of characters always staying as they were in the environment in which you first saw them. And sadly, that wasn't the reunion I had last night, with Det. Mike Logan.
For when the anticipated moment finally arrived and I caught sight of him again, all I could see was a ghost out of sync with time. A shadow of something I used to enjoy. And instead of suspending my disbelief, the way I always do with Spock, Kirk and McCoy, I was distracted by how dated Logan's cocky swagger felt. I saw the actor in other words and not his character. I could see the acting. At least Noth appeared to be enjoying himself, so I'm glad he had fun. None of which surprised - but I'd had my fingers crossed all the same, you know? Which isn't to say I'd disliked him, so much as not caring much in the end, either way. That could change come season 5 - no doubt it's a matter of wait and see.
As for the story itself, it wasn't exactly riveting imo, although I give them credit for trying. And it did have its moments. I loved the scene with "Chocolate Jimmy" and his mom; holy crap!! Chuckle! I'll never complain again about annoying relatives - for knowing now just how much worse Christmas dinner "could be". LOL! I smiled at Eames's line "I didn't know you could play Twister by yourself" upon finding Goren standing over a patchwork of files on the floor. And Goren's quip to Logan "you can sit at my desk, it's the one over there at the end - near the gunrack". Chuckle! And it was amusing to see Logan pick up, briefly examine and then discard Goren's book about deviant behavior.
But after that I kinda disengaged from it all; emotionally speaking. I'm not sure, maybe it's just me, but the show felt different somehow - and not just because of Logan's presense. I don't know if it owed to the camera angles, the lighting, sets or locations, but it didn't feel like a usual episode of Criminal Intent. More like a "hybred of intent" - could it be they were also testing out a "sensibility" or vibe? A small precurser of what's to come ie: this is a little bit like how future episodes are going to feel with Det. Logan and his as yet unnamed partner? Hmm. Maybe I just imagined it? I did watch the episode twice though. Same thing the second time around.
I hope whomever she is, there's more chemistry between those two than I caught between Logan and his girl friend (whose working class accent was so thick, it had to be fake) as Noth seemed to walk through those scenes, which subsequently failed to resonate with me; I personally suspect he was having more fun "being on a Law & Order set again" as opposed to anything else. For I never got a sense he was that concerned for her, even though I knew he was supposed to be. Which again, was distracting.
As for the ending, although D'Onofrio managed to project a measure of uncertainty at first as to its outcome, it was otherwise a pedictable; in that I never doubted for a moment that he'd use his "head" as usual, this time to get them out of a fix. There was little suspense therefore, as he proceeding pick them off one by one, applying psychology to do it, until last man standing etc. And since you always knew the motivation behind it - "why" the guards had followed their leader and "why" the leader had led them to abuse prisoners in the first place (ie: power corrupts) the end lacked an emotional pay-off for me.
So not a bad episode, not a great episode, just... less than what I hoped for but not as terrible as I'd feared it would be.
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Post by Greeble on Feb 14, 2005 11:27:11 GMT -5
This episode WAS different from others, there was no real emphasis on the main evil guy. Instead of learning all about the ringleader like we normally might have, we learned only a small bit about his henchmen. The emphasis was not whodunnit or whydunnit as much as it was whatsbeendone.
I don't remember seeing another CI with quite that emphasis. Of course I have'nt seen any 2nd season or many 4th season episodes.
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