4:13 - "Stress Position" 2005-02-13

[lisianthus]

Hi,
I loved this episode and thought the ending was great.

I agree with Observer2's posts, the 'huge dizzying leap', Logan's comments at the end and Goren's talking them down at the end all fit very well.

Harper Lee did a similar talking down in 'To Kill a Mockingbird'. The character Scout breaks up the mob by addressing them as individuals, not a group. The people remember themselves and disband. And she was only 8!

I'm not at all happy with giving up Goren half the shows next year, but having seen this, I'll give Noth a shot. And hope VDO stays past next year.

Terry

[MelTex]

Yea, I felt the same way about Noth's performance in the scene with the girlfriend at her apartment, as you Marie.

It looked like he was just going through the paces. "Oh you want me gone? Ok, just let me spy on you for a sec...then I'm gone... no big". (Note to self: After seeing that scene, do not ever date Logan...LOL)
While there were hints of the "Old Logan" in this ep., the arrogance and "your wasting my time, Goren" vibes seemed pushed a little too much.

I still enjoyed the episode, and I liked the little Goren-Grins when he's pushed Logan's buttons -- but I guess in the end, I was expecting more from Logan. He did act like he was glad to be back on the L&O universe though.

And yea, now that it has been mentioned, I did end that episode with some questions.
Like how did that Lebonese kid get out after 3 years?
Why did the Lead CO Plumb start the prisoner torture -- what was his motive, other than the psychology of Power Gain in Law enforcement.
(which I know personally, from having a fiance that is a CO in a Federal Prison...the "Power Addiction" DOES happen..)

I liked the change in emotion on Goren's face in the lock-down...I like placing him in new circumstances and seeing how he's gonna thin his way out of that bag. But, there was no doubt he'd take the mental profiling way out.

I'm still a little wary of how CI will fare in the S 5 eps without Goren, but I'm happy to get the 11 eps with him and Eames at any rate.

[Metella]

AZ from the fish store got out of the prison because he had been checked & determined to not have been involved in terrorism ... the reason they let him out is they felt they had intimidated into silence .... which they had. He wasn't giving anything verbal to the cops. The prisoners were still under FEDERAL control; just the guards were abusing them while they kept them. It would have been the FEDS who said let him go & the guards who threatened him not to talk.

I thought the Chocolate nickname & implication was graphic; it was in keeping with the story, but racy for a TV show.

Observer: I think you have jumped too far in your conclusion that Goren must have been beaten up badly in his childhood to react this way. But we all call on our own personal experiences to interpret ..... mine is this:
I have never been hit - but there were two times in my past when I knew that I was near to being in a literal fight to the death ... if the fight started; it was going to be ended by one of us not breathing. That drops your stomach to your feet. I found similar mannerisms in Logan and Goren that I felt were appropriate for anyone facing this kind of fight; regardless of being beat before, or knowing or not knowing how to fight.

[missymagoshi]

Marie, great post. I agree with most everything you said. Except you really thought the mom and CJ scene was good? That was the one scene that seemed overly theatrical to me. The mother especially. I really felt the writer (s) "cleverly" at work here. What transvesite punk sits around eating bisquits all day? And a name like Chocolate Jimmy? Yeah, we all get what it means, but honestly it seemed silly and contrived. I liked the episode on 2nd viewing even more. It had a larger sense of purpose which was wonderful.

[Observer2]

MelTex said:

Oh yea Observer, I totally see where you're coming from about Goren getting this look on his face when the second pair of guards come out of the side door.

Very chilling to see that change come over him, we don't get to see much gutteral fear in Bobby. It was like his brain had to click back from "trapped mode" into "analyze your captors...figure a way out" mode.

Loved the way he read the CO's like a book while Logan was giving them the facts of life for cop-killers in NYC.

I was chewing my lip during that scene...for sure!

Yeah, that look on his face, and that “short of breath” feeling that continued throughout the scene. Because, to a large degree, his brain never did click out of “trapped mode.” That’s one of the big differences between traumatic fear and normal fear.

Logan did a nice demonstration of a typical adult male reaction to situational fear. He went into fight or flight mode, channeling the fear into useful anger/aggression.

Traumatized fear doesn’t work that way. It’s very often linked with learned helplessness – that “trapped mode.” At the time of the trauma neither running away nor fighting was an effective option. The only other instinctive responses are to freeze or to shut down entirely. So traumatic fear doesn’t get channeled into anything that’s useful in the situation. Goren wasn’t using his fear to fuel his response, the way Logan was. Goren was having to work to overcome his fear every step of the way. You could hear it in his voice, especially the shortness of breath, and see it in the tension in his face and in his microexpressions.

The only point where he was able to tap into anger was when he started talking about Kurt selling the abuse as some kind of patriotic duty. That pulls him out of the traumatized reaction into his adult outrage, and his microexpressions shift. When Kurt says something about meting out justice, Goren’s outrage flares for a moment, then fades as he shifts focus back to reaching the Navy guy.

One of the things I love about this scene is the way Goren’s openness – his lack of the kinds of emotional walls that Logan has – has an impact not only on how well he can get through to these men, but also on how they respond to him afterwards. Raleigh’s reaction to Goren reminded me of the killer in The Pardoner’s Tale (the guy who wanted his mother and his son protected – and who took Goren’s word on it). Raleigh says, “I’ll do my time in solitary” to keep him safe from the vengeance prisoners might take on a former corrections officer. When he says that, he looks to Goren, asking for confirmation. Goren nods. And Raleigh takes that as reliable. That strikes me as a realistic response to the way Goren has interacted with him.

[Marie]

missymagoshi said:

Marie, great post. I agree with most everything you said. Except you really thought the mom and CJ scene was good? That was the one scene that seemed overly theatrical to me. The mother especially. I really felt the writer (s) "cleverly" at work here. What transvesite punk sits around eating bisquits all day? And a name like Chocolate Jimmy? Yeah, we all get what it means, but honestly it seemed silly and contrived. I liked the episode on 2nd viewing even more. It had a larger sense of purpose which was wonderful.

Ever see "Sid & Nancy" or "Trainspotting" or "Pulp Fiction" - films of that ilk? I'd never invite those people over to my house, chuckle, but they're fun to watch in a movie all the same (for me.) Chocolate Jimmy reminded me a little of screwed-up characters like that - which is why I enjoyed his brief appearance. So too, his mom.

They were so wonderfully disfunctional. LOL!

Note: Sid & Nancy...

Nancy's in a red phone booth in London with Sid Vicious - played with the "Sex Pistols"; UK punk band. They've gotten married. They're also heroin addicts and broke. She's called her mom in the States and she wants some cash wired over; a wedding present. Her mom intends to send linens or some such instead. Nancy freaks out, and gets into this hilarious screaming match on the phone!

"So mom..? Why don't you send us some money..? We are too married...!!! YES WE ARE!!!! No... we don't need sheets.. He does TOO love me!!!! But you never loved me! No you didn't...!!!"

"HELLO mum!" - Sid shouts into the phone

"FINE! See if we care! We don't need your money! I HATE YOU! f**k YOU! No - f**k YOU!!!!!!!!!!"

LOL! That scene still resonates with me after 15 yrs!!!

And that's why I liked Chocolate Jimmy and his mother. Smile.

Sorry for the profanity, but it was in the service of providing context. Because if you know I laughed at THAT - you'd totally understand why I could chuckle at the other.

[Patcat]

Another thought--in addition to isolating and neutralizing the two guards most emotionally ready to surrender, Goren also manages to take out the two who are most clearly a physical threat to himself, Logan and the nurse. Cruz and Raleigh are the youngest and strongest appearing of the four guards. Once they are out of the picture, I have a sense that Goren and Logan could physically take the other two guards, particularly the ringleader. I suspect he hasn't actually had to deal with a someone in a fair fight for some time.

And Logan and Goren actually work very well with each other in the final confrontation. Logan's direct challenge to the guards gives Goren time to gain his psychological footing. Then Logan goes into a quiet control mode while Goren takes the lead.

It's not a flawless episode, but I think this is one where the final scene was the point of the whole show. That worked for me, and I'm willing to forgive the episode a lot because of it.

Patcat

[Observer2]

Metella said:

Observer: I think you have jumped too far in your conclusion that Goren must have been beaten up badly in his childhood to react this way. But we all call on our own personal experiences to interpret ..... mine is this:
I have never been hit - but there were two times in my past when I knew that I was near to being in a literal fight to the death ... if the fight started; it was going to be ended by one of us not breathing. That drops your stomach to your feet. I found similar mannerisms in Logan and Goren that I felt were appropriate for anyone facing this kind of fight; regardless of being beat before, or knowing or not knowing how to fight.

Metella,

Of course, you may be right. But I’ve seen Goren in at least two other clearly life-threatening situations – the stand-off in The Pardoner’s Tale and the shotgun scene in Phantom. When I compare his reactions in this situation, I see specific differences that, to me, seem related to the differences between adult situational fear and regressive, traumatic fear.

I put that together with other things I know about Goren, and with other times when he has shown regressive fear/anxiety affect, from moments like his reaction to Dougie’s mother’s outburst in Con-Text, and his affect when contradicting the FBI agent in The Pilgrim, to much more mild situations where microexpressions of regressive fear/anxiety stood out as striking in such a competent, functional adult. To my mind, when I put all these things together they seem to form a pattern.

It’s a pattern I’m all too familiar with, in my own life and in others I know who’ve dealt with childhood trauma. And I have to admit that if there’s more than one pattern that fits the facts, I might tend to see the one I’m most familiar with more easily than I would see a different one. But I’m familiar with a lot of psychological patterns, and I haven’t been able to think of another one that accounts for everything I’ve seen in Goren.

So, as Monk would say... I could be wrong. But I don’t think so.

Of course, you, and others, may disagree...

[janetcatbird]

Actually Iw as relieved that this episode wasn't as graphic as I'd feared. THe body on the steps did not seem that bad to me, the bloody bottle said all it needed to. And did we really see the prisoners injuries? Rather we saw bandages or a stiff arm--much more effective and Hitchcockian to my taste. What I did like was how Gina in the confrontation started using language like she'd used in a report, clinical diagnosis and stuff. I thought that was a nice touch, people get panicky and they focus on procedure, routine, doing what you know so that by using a familiar approach it gives you a greater semblance of control.

But Chocolate Jimmy and his mother funny? That wasn't funny, that was heartbreaking. Good God, I know Norman Rockwell wasn't real but how can people be amused by watching such cruelty and malevolence towards each other? Marie, I don't mean this as a slight against you, I'm just giving my gut response of "Oh no, that's awful" in terms of that family dynamic. Personally I thought the stereotype of Jimmy as gay transvestite was cloying (realistic, maybe, but still irritating), but I felt sorry for him having to grow up in that household. And I didn't think that was terribly explicit either, I mean, you knew what it meant but it wasn't like a blow-by-blow account.

At least they didn't make Rogers screw up this time. I kind of liked her delivery--she gave the clinical description of the injuries with a tone and a look towards Goren that said "OK, smartypants, what do you say?" Personally I would dearly love an episode where Goren makes some grand falutin' hypothesis only to be shot down and proven wrong by Rogers. I'm not saying she'd be ugly about it, I expect better of her than that, but just once for Goren to miss something that's almost too easy or simple would be a great humanizing touch--and a delicious payback for Rogers' fans.

On a somewhat related digression we just wathed a movie in my RUssian film class called "Burnt By the Sun", set during the time of the Stalinist purges. THe arrest, the drive away in the car, the whole political paranoia destryoing people, and the final captions about people being "Rehabilitated posthumously" ...apparently I've a hit a theme this week. Terrific movie, I highly reccomend it.

[Observer2]

Catbird,

Good description of how the nurse coped when Goren asked her to tell what she had seen.

And I’m with you on the scene with Jimmy and his mother. But I think I understand why people would find it funny. They think it’s an exaggeration. They don’t think that kind of thing really happens. They’ve never imagined such an ugly, petty, vicious relationship between a mother and her son, so they think it’s over the top. Hey, isn’t it nice to know there are people out there who’ve never seen that level of sickness in a family system?

[janetcatbird]

I think part of it is I just don't like malicious humor. I will be sarcastic and I can tease with the best of them (good-hearted mean) but I honestly hate it when people get hurt. I've been fortuante in having a great relationship with supportive parents, but I've seen other situations, even when nowhere near Jimmy's level, that makes me realize "Yeah, it exists", shudder. While the mother's lines may have been a bit cliche' I think the performers did an excellent job of NOT sitcom-yukking it up, of conveying genuine contempt/disgust/resentment towards each other.

Catbird

[Techguy]

Not much to add after so many terrific posts. But I do want to make a few points of my own.

After all the hype and hoopla about this episode and the addition of Chris Noth to the cast next season, I approached my viewing with an open yet skeptical mind. Overall, I have to say I "enjoyed" this episode despite its dark underlying premise of what happens to basically good and decent people when they are lured or intimidated into acting against the law as well as their own moral instincts.

What I really liked in "Stress Position" was the showcasing, comparing and contrasting different types of use of power and what binds groups of disparate individuals together. Anyone who has ever served in the military, particularly in wartime, knows that what binds members of a unit together isn't loyalty to a cause, it's loyalty to the other members of the group. That's why the psych experiments with "guards" and "prisoners" was so effective, because it created an us-against-them dynamic that was difficult to break despite whatever moral, ethical, or legal restraints might be in place to prevent such an occurrence.

"Stress Position" clearly demonstrates the differences in the working dynamics of the police (represented by Detectives Goren, Eames and Logan) and the prison guards headed by Kurt. Even though Logan seems to me misplaced and his methods sometimes contrary to MCS procedures, the police "group" remains intact and untimately perseveres because the members have learned or decided to place loyalty to upholding the law above pursuit of power, above their individual differences or approaches to criminal investigation.

On the other hand, Det. Goren was able to defuse the volatile situation during lockdown by successfully attacking the guards' power structure at its source and foundation. Kurt had bound the other guards to the abuse of prisoners and murder of the one guard who dared attempt a job change by appealing to their loyalty to a cause, that since the prisoners were non-persons and potential terrorists because of their Arab heritage, the guards were justified in meting out abuse as punishment, and killing someone who threatened the group's activities.

In the tense finale, Det. Goren dismantles the abusive guard group by re-focusing their attention away from their sick and murderous cause toward attention to loyalty to the group. When he asks Gina the nurse to tell what she had seen, the guards are confronted with the knowledge of how they were misled and mistaken, allowing Kurt to go ahead and have the maverick guard killed. Because clearly now, this kind of betrayal of loyalty to a specific member of the group, combined with what they had done to the prisoners, is enough to sway the guards away from their intended purpose--to kill Goren, Logan and Gina and blame it on the prisoners. The dismantling was helped along, of course, by Goren's attacking each guard at the point of his own weakness, as well as Logan's reminder of what the state of New York has in store for cop killers.

The story overall, and the finale in particular, worked for me on a number of levels, not least of which is what Patcat referred to with her Hitchcockian statement. Alfred Hitchcock once said that he was more interested in the ticking time bomb under the table than the bomb going off and exploding. Goren's careful approach to going after each guard beneath Kurt at his point of weakness is like the ticking time bomb, because we don't know when or if the darn thing is going to explode. This is an extremely well writtten and acted scene that held my attention throughout.

One other small point--on the basis of this one episode, I'm still not sure how Chris Noth's Mike Logan is going to integrate into Major Case Squad. I didn't see anything here to suggest he is MCS material, and his debunking of psych with the thrown book on Goren's desk suggests to me he is still the street cop who will be out of water in the MCS environment. His parting statement that getting Kurt would have been worth 10 more years on Staten Island is further cause for my concern on how Logan will fit in with CI, even if he is paired with a profiling partner.

[domenicaflor]

My initial impression of Logan's return is lukewarm, just lukewarm. However, I want to give him and the show the benefit of the doubt, so I will give it another watch after my midterm exam this week.

I think Techguy hit the nail squarely on the head when he pointed out the 2 phrases Logan spoke which give me pause about his joinging MCS. One was the psychology book quip, which although funny and definitely in character, shows lack of maturity. We know now that he will undoubtedly be making fun of "the Goren show" even more than Deakins in season 1. The second, of course, was the line about it being worth ten more years in Staten Island to beat down the corrupt federal guard. Even Goren in "A Murderer Among Us" was able to reign himself in and drop the pipe when the suspect gave in. So even though I understand Logan's reaction to the guard as a natural one of anger, the fact that he considered it indicates to me that he is still a loose cannon.

I agree with Observer, Metella, and others about the power of the ending scene. Even though I intellectually knew that this was the only logical ending given the fact that the police and the nurse were at the mercy of the guards, it still kept me on edge. I think that only the scenes of the ending in "Phantom" and "Murderer Among Us" have been more tense. I understand other posters' reactions to the scene having a feel of being "too easy" since it seemed that the guards capitulated rather quickly. I think a little more dialogue or interaction from the guards might have dispelled that if time permitted.

My initial impression of Chocolate Jimmy was that the entire scene was a twisted reference to KISS OF A SPIDER WOMAN. For those who may not have seen the film or read the book, in KOSW Molina (played by William Hurt) is a gay cross-dressing prisoner who tells fanciful tales of foreign movies to pass the time in his Brazilian jail cell. He befriends his cellmate, a revolutionary named Valentin (played by Raul Julia), in order to obtain secrets which he turns over to the prison warden in exchange for food and a commuted sentence. Both Molina and Jimmy identify themselves as gay and effeminate men. The kimono and makeup were a direct parallel to those that Molina wears. Also, the backstory of the Brazilian prison is that the prisoners are routinely beaten, tortured, and even poisoned to break them down so that they reveal political secrets, which corresponds to the torture taking place in the federal prison of the episode. Both Molina and Jimmy effectively become patsies of the guards, with one becoming a spy and the other becoming a "professional confessor". The family dynamic is twisted in that their relationship with their mothers is completely opposite, as Molina loves his mother and constantly worries about her health and well-being while Jimmy freeloads at his mother's house.

I may be taking the KOSW comparison too far, but it does not surprise me that the writers would make reference to the academy award winning film (also made into a musical from the original text by the openly gay Argentine author Manuel Puig, who escaped Argentina to avoid persecution from the Peronist party).

Thank you JanetCatbird for providing the Zimbardo references. I hadn't thought about them since Psych 101 in college way back when. That's some deep scary shit.

D.

[Marie]

janetcatbird said:

But Chocolate Jimmy and his mother funny? That wasn't funny, that was heartbreaking. Good God, I know Norman Rockwell wasn't real but how can people be amused by watching such cruelty and malevolence towards each other? Marie, I don't mean this as a slight against you, I'm just giving my gut response of "Oh no, that's awful" in terms of that family dynamic. Personally I thought the stereotype of Jimmy as gay transvestite was cloying (realistic, maybe, but still irritating), but I felt sorry for him having to grow up in that household. And I didn't think that was terribly explicit either, I mean, you knew what it meant but it wasn't like a blow-by-blow account.

Oh no fears, janetcatbird! I totally respect your take on it! It's a truly honest, visceral response to what you saw on screen. And for what it's worth, I saw it too; ie: how cruel they were being to one another.

I guess the difference is that in my case, I also saw a measure of "black" humour in it as well. Which is no doubt a byproduct of watching a lot of British TV when I was a kid - Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, Black Adder, etc.

Side note: My father is a very difficult and cantankerous man, and it's only gotten worse as he's grown older. He yells a lot when he loses his temper. And my siblings and I have long since learned that it's better to laugh than cry when the dust settles. At least then you don't end up feeling miserable in the wake of bad behavior. So that also feeds into my pathology and ergo, subsequent sense of humour.

Personally I would dearly love an episode where Goren makes some grand falutin' hypothesis only to be shot down and proven wrong by Rogers. I'm not saying she'd be ugly about it, I expect better of her than that, but just once for Goren to miss something that's almost too easy or simple would be a great humanizing touch--and a delicious payback for Rogers' fans.

Oooo!!! What a great idea for a scene! Do you hear that Rene Balcer..?! Are you lurking on the board as one of those "guests?" Chuckle! As I'd love to see that too! I adore Mr. Smarty Pants - but sometimes... as with Mr. Spock, you want to see Dr. McCoy get the upperhand on him - just ONCE! LOL!

(Now watch, some hyperventilating Star Trek fan will burst into the room and tell me about an episode wherein...)

Chuckle!

On a somewhat related digression we just wathed a movie in my Russian film class called "Burnt By the Sun", set during the time of the Stalinist purges. The arrest, the drive away in the car, the whole political paranoia destryoing people, and the final captions about people being "Rehabilitated posthumously" ...apparently I've a hit a theme this week. Terrific movie, I highly reccomend it.

I haven't seen that one! (Total film buff here.) I also went through a Russian literary phase at one point; Tolstoy, Nabakov etc. That aside...

I think one of the reasons I failed to respond more favorably to "Stress Position" is because the concept for the episode... Patriot Act + power corrupts = Abu ghraib-like abuses at home, was never really the focus of the show. Instead I felt it merely served as plot device and subsequent backdrop for Logan's return and the ultimate confrontation in the end with the guards.

Ever see a film starring Clive Owen & Angelina Jolie called "Beyond Borders"..? A tale of two star-crossed lovers set against the backdrop of the world's most dangerous hot spots etc. They took us to war torn nations, showed you all manner of suffering and despair, but it was ultimately just window dressing for the two leads. The film makers intentions were good, but the bigger story was pushed into background.

"Stress Position" felt a little bit like that, to me.

Which is why I wasn't able to connect emotionally, on a deep enough level, to the very thing I was supposed to care about. Instead, everything in the foregound distracted me from it. So unlike a regular episode of Criminal Intent, I never got drawn into the "story".

More like, oh, hey, look - Logan's back and doing his cocky swagger shtick again.

[Greeble]

I don't think the writers could have brought the patriot act, police state tactics issue more to the forefront without getting way too disturbing. It wouldn't do any good anyway, the main characters, guest stars etc would still be the forefront of what fans discuss -- or even SEE.

Yes, they sofballed the issue a bit by not making reference to sanctioned methods of torture. They kept it to unnofficial illegal torture. But some things are too big or horrible to really fit into one's mind at first. Or one hour drama.

JMS was frustrated by that when he wrote a similar script a few years before 9-11. No one wanted to discuss the issue with him, only actors, similar movies, plays etc.

People read or hear about the patriot act and some of the abuses of power on US military posts or here in the US and
a. can't relate to what might be happening
b. won't believe it could possibly happen
or worse:
c. think its justified. (yes, such people exist in States, I have been running into them for 30 years)

That is why I liked this episode, it didn't try to do the impossible, instead if focused on negative aspects of what
harm it caused in the perpetrators. Lack of sleep, loss of previous ambition, guilt, fear, lying to loved ones, desperate to get out but not sure how (am I the only one that thinks the nurse WANTED Logan to find that postcard?) As well as the fear and helplesness of the surviving victims. Aziz was out, but not free.

Sorry, putting away soapbox now.