2:03 - "Anti-Thesis" 2002-10-13

[Patcat]

USA showed this episode last night. It is, of course, the debut of Elizabeth Hitchens/Nicole Wallace/the Evil One. After all that's happened with this character, it's fascinating to revisit her beginnings.

It's, as I've written before, a brilliant idea--to make the arch enemy of this big, brilliant detective a small, blonde woman. This may simply be the result of the casting of Oliva D'Abo in the part, but there's a wonderful physical contrast between her and Mr. D'Onofrio, as well as the fact that she is not unlike Kathryn Erbe in her appearance.

There does seem to be some attraction between Goren and Wallace at their inital meeting before Goren becomes aware of how deadly she is. And why not? At this point Wallace appears to be what she says she is--a professor of literature. She's pretty, witty, and smart. Smart enough to quickly assess Goren's intelligence and to see beyond his act as a big lummox.

Nicole seems unable to deal with anyone except on a sexual basis. Even in her discussion of MOBY DICK she considers the novel a metaphor for male potency, while Goren regards it as a work regarding obsession.

It's not the most coherent or logical of LOCI episodes, but it is memorable for the introduction of the Evil One and for its revelations regarding Robert Goren's character. And Mr. D'Onofrio's performance as Goren is splendid, particularly as Wallace attacks him at his most vulnerable points.

Patcat

[Sirenna]

Interesting. I think they each spoke of the darkest part of themselves. For her it's the perverted sexual part and for him it's the unrelenting obsession that prevents him from having a full life.

[javawolf]

Ooo, yes. I hadn't looked at it that way. I had seen the 'sparks' between Goren and Nicole in the beginning. It seemed to me that the attraction never really vanished. Is it possible that Goren's attraction to Nicole is part of what makes her such a threat to him?

[Sirenna]

Is he attracted to her. I never thought so but it is debatable.

[Patcat]

This episode just appeared on USA, and I have to say that I think I regard it more highly each time I see it. It's interesting that even in the show's first use of the Evil One that there are holes in the plot surrounding her, holes that will continue throughout her saga. But, there's a lot of strong material, including the work of all of the actors.

During this viewing I noted how Eames reacted to everything. When Goren and Eames interview the Evil One in her stunning apartment, Eames disappears from the scene until it becomes evident that both Wallace and Goren are on to each other. Then she steps suddenly in front of Goren, almost as if she's acting as a shield. And I think the conclusion of this episode is one of the few moments where Eames is seriously upset with Goren. Her remark about the scones is meant, I think, not so much as to wound Goren as to wake him up, to remind him that Wallace isn't like him, but a danger.

Patcat

[maherjunkie]

[quote author=patcat board=discussion thread=. And I think the conclusion of this episode is one of the few moments where Eames is seriously upset with Goren. Her remark about the scones is meant, I think, not so much as to wound Goren as to wake him up, to remind him that Wallace isn't like him, but a danger.

Patcat[/quote]

What remark is that? I didn't catch it. Thanks for the "sparks" back up, Patcat. Javawolf, I think in you I've found a comrade.

[Cassie]

Just got done watching it. I still feel Goren like what he saw when he first met her. More so actually, I bet he too is an opera fan

Maybe I am reading more into it. While in the Interrogation Room, when Goren and Eames where explaining to Nicole that since she was an unemployed alien in this country. She had no rights what so ever. Goren said “ I can keep you here as long as it takes to build a case against you,” Shouldn’t he have said “we can keep you …..”? I think that was a little Freudian slip from Goren….If she was normal, and innocent he would have been asking her out after the case was put to rest

Like Patcat said about Eames statement to Goren at the end. “what did you think she would have scones and sherry waiting here for us” Could be Eames way of saying to Goren…..She is not what you think she should be

[kawaiidragonfoe821]

sirenna said:

Interesting. I think they each spoke of the darkest part of themselves. For her it's the perverted sexual part and for him it's the unrelenting obsession that prevents him from having a full life.

I'm interested in knowing more about the 'obsession' you speak of in Goren's pathology, if you're refering to the fact that he's 'married to his job' as they say & knows nothing else then i totally agree w/ you about it robbing him of a full life. Alex address this issue with this quote: 'he likes to be left alone to do what he does best... catch the bad guys' (i cant remember what ep that was from but it was from season 4). but the real question is does he even realize it or... more importantly miss what others around him are experiencing (i'e. a wife, kids... etc)?

On the subject of attraction btw Nicole & Bobby, i dont think its so much a sexual thing as it is an intellectual thing. Goren's FINALLY found someone who presents a challenge to him &... in the end got the upper hand on him by escaping not once but twice (getting off w/ a not guilty verdict, partly thanks to her hubby's $). In their first encounter, you can clearly see that there he enjoys engaging her. But that soon changes when he realized for himself just how evil she really is. also he seems a bit more reserved for a few scenes after going head to head with her, as if it exausted him.
As for Moby Dick, it can be interprited as both as a metaphor for male potency & obsession.
anyway thats what i think LOL ;D

[amberlight]

One of my fav. subjects Nichole and Goren! They are Darth Vader and Obi One, locked in the battle of good and evil. Two humans, tragic beginnings split in how they delt with it. It is a classic conflict played and replayed often. To use Moby Dick as a pivotal point of their relationship does not hit the mark for me. The white whale was not evil - Ahab obession made him so. Goren was right - Moby was just a whale blown out of portion by an obsessed mind out for vengence. Nichole is more Ahab then Goren. She went on the vengeful killing spree as payback for her abuse by a male - "the subject is daddies"
They work so well for me because the actors are weaving their relationship so intensly. I happen to think Olivia is brillant in this part. I know they are following the script - but it is the personal bent they take in delivering the lines, that make them so interesting together.

First, Olivia and Vincent have a history which I think helps. Olivia has matured in her skills and uses them. She has developed her Nichole as well defined as Vincent has his Goren. Both actors seem clear in their character and they dance devinely together in conflict.

Similarities
Both very intelligent
" very abused
" manipulative and obsessed/focused
Differences are how they used it. One went to The Dark Side other The Light

I think they are attracted to each other because they are the black and white of a very similar person. It is as if one human being was split in half and recognizes they have lost their other half. NO person is all good or all bad but a combo in balance. Both are off balance at the moment. I believe together, they would both be healed. I think they realize it and it is attractive. They make a beatiful pair. If it were not for the lives she has taken, she would find peace from her inner torture with Goren and he with her. It will not happen because she has killed - that is not forgiveable.

We met Olivia after her Broadway show and complimented her on her fine work with this character. We briefly discussed her take on Nichole and she said - " She is a scarey women. she frightens me most of the time" I said to her how well she compliments Vincent's more physical work to her subtle uses of expression, clever phrasing of the dialogue. I said her eyes mirror the words perfectly. I told her she works very well with Vincent and would love to see them work on something together - as the leads. It would have happend in The Whole Wide World anyway.

[maherjunkie]

I agree on all counts, amberlight. (We just won't let the posters at the "Grow"thread know!) I would be curious as to what Broadway show she was in.

[janetcatbird]

Oh come on, it's always nice to hear different views of a subject! Heck, I was one of a few people who actually liked the episode "Grow", nobody jumped all over me for it! Even if we dislike the show we've managed to be civil to everybody personally, so don't insult us like that. You have something to say about "Grow", pipe up.

I think the reason fans get so vitriolic about her is because we don't like the scripts and the writing. What really hacked a lot of people off--myself included--was the voting for "Great Barrier"; it seemed they were rejective story and character integrity for a gimmick. I personally liked the ambiguous nature of "Anti-THesis", how she was the one that got away. As I've said before, we didn't really need her to come back, as the contrivances just got sillier. That's how the world works sometimes, criminals escape/get acquitted and not everyone is brought to justice. I really hope that "Grow" is her final appearance.

As to Broadway, I believe Ms. D'Abo is in "The Odd Couple", but I don't know the character. Amberlight, how cool that you got to meet her! While I haven't seen her in much else, I do think she does a very nice job with the part, even if I have qualms about the writing. She and D'Onofrio do have some interesting chemistry in their scenes together. I have not read many fans who talk ugly about the actress Olivia d'Abo--even the ones who hate her character seem to respect the performer. The only real criticisms I've heard is regards to her accent not being Australian.

About Nicole/Goren romantic sparks, I said my piece on "Grow" but it seems appropriate enough here. I think Goren was intrigued by and attracted to Elizabeth Hitchens the cute, intelligent, charming literature professor. I remember being stunned at the violin music when they were chatting about Oxford, which in most projects is the musical cue for "Fade to curtains blowing in the breeze". However, when Goren recognized that she was Nicole Wallace, manipulative, callous serial killer, it nipped the romantic attraction in the bud. Their personalities still spark, just because of who they are--I'm with Kawaiidragon on the intellectual give-and-take, who doesn' t love a lively conversation! But I think Goren is more ashamed and embarrassed by the former attraction than actually feeling it. He has gone from angry and sensitive about her to, in "Grow", more annoyed and resigned and frustrated at still having to deal with her. He may have had--at one point--a back of his mind sense of Darn it, if she had only been Elizabeth Hitchens and just a witness in the case! but, thanks to his own sense of morality--and Eames helpful prodding--he knows that she isn't. And he isn't going to delude himself into thinking something might work out or thinking he can fix her.

--Catbird

[maherjunkie]

That's what I'm saying! But I dare to mention they might have "sparks" and you would have sworn I started WW3. (Not really, of course, but you know what I mean). I thought the character was supposed to be from S.AFrica originally, but I'm not sure if it was that or Australia. Someone call Kylie Minogue.

[Patcat]

I agree with much of what has been said. I think Goren was attracted to her when he thought she was that lovely professor of literature, but once he became aware of her true nature he wanted nothing to do with her. I also think Ms. D'Abo does a terrific job with a part that is frequently under or poorly written (although let me hasten to add that there are times when the writers do some terrific things with Nicole. She's certainly allowed us to learn many things about Bobby.) I liked GROW. I liked the lovely moral quandry it gave us. But I also think her next appearance should be her last.

Patcat

[Techguy]

This comment is more about a scene from the episode "A Person of Interest." I'll mention it anyway because I see it as relevant to my understanding of exactly where Det. Goren is at in his experiences with Nicole and how he now feels about her.

It's the final scene, with Goren at his desk across from Eames, and he throws up his hands and says something to the effect of he's relieved to be through with Nicole, she's someone else's problem/responsibility now. His entire body language and words suggest to me he is glad to be rid of Nicole and have her out of his life (perhaps because he had made serious errors of judgment about her that he has come to regret).

Goren then takes a paper bag and says to Deakins (maybe Carver is there too, I'm not sure) and Goren offers what's inside the bag as he gets up to leave. Deakins looks and sounds puzzled, but Eames smiles and explains everything with a single word, "Scones."

I take this as going back to the last scene in "Anti-Thesis" where Eames makes a scones comment as an admonishment and a warning to Goren that Nicole is not who he believes, or wants to believe, she is. But when she says the word in POI, she's saying that Goren has come to realize that the Elizabeth Hitchens he thought he was attracted to at the start of A-T is really the manipulative, cunning and murderous Nicole who all present would want to be brought to justice. Long before the POI finale, whatever romantic interest Goren may have had in Elizabeth Hitchens was gone in the light of day reality that Nicole turned out to be.

I don't doubt Goren remains intrigued by the intellectual challenge Nicole presents. I also don't doubt he is both saddened and repulsed by her decisions as to how she chose to use that intelligence.

[Patcat]

PAS DE DEUX, the episode where it's revealed that Nicole has been found not guilty, played this weekend (and it was strange to see the late Charles Rocket). It's interesting to watch Goren's body language when Deakins informs the detectives of the verdict. It seems Goren is on the verge of running away when he learns Nicole is free. I think he knows that he's going to have to deal with her in the future, and he very much wants to avoid that possibility.

Patcat