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Post by Patcat on Jul 25, 2006 8:33:59 GMT -5
And it seems to me that Goren is one of the few men who recognizes both how damaged and damaging Nicole is. Even Bernard and Nicole's ex-husband seem to be unaware of how dangerous she can be. And the fact that Goren knows what she is is another reason for Nicole to hate him. I also think Nicole recognizes that Goren also suffered abuse (physical and mental, I believe, but not sexual) as a child, and yet he managed to overcome it, to even turn it to allow him to have greater insight into others. Another reason that she hates him is that he managed to became a good person.
Patcat
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Post by goreamesfan on Jul 26, 2006 12:13:02 GMT -5
This is one of the episodes I watch every time it airs. And now that I've seen all of the Nicole episodes except Grow, I have to admit that I enjoy her presence on the show, even if the plots are contrived.
Having watched this ep several times, I do think Goren and Nicoles are somewhat attracted in the beginning, but both characters use sex appeal as a tool/manipulation, and both are highly manipulative, so there's no way of knowing. I certainly don't think Nicole is capable of love and probably doesn't even enjoy sex but sees both as a means to an end (which is why she's sexually "indifferent," as someone intelligently pointed out). And I agree with techguy -- I remember thinking that Goren definitely had no residual attraction to Nicole after what she did to him in "A Person of Interest." What he says at the end of that episode is "I'm done with her." In fact, in Nicole's third appearance, Eames takes a much more active role in the interrogations -- it's not just the Bobby/Nicole show.
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Post by sarahlee on Jul 26, 2006 12:28:56 GMT -5
Good insights all! I get so irritated when I read how attracted Goren is by Nicole--I don't see it at all.
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Post by maherjunkie on Jul 29, 2006 9:46:45 GMT -5
I think his sexual interest quickly fizzled out in "Anti-Thesis". It seems like after she said "I can't believe you'd have to chase very long".. he goes from intrigued to suspicious at lightning speed.
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Post by sarahlee on Jul 29, 2006 13:25:47 GMT -5
Exactly! Goren is the kind of man who enjoys the challenge, a woman would have to appeal to him in all ways beside the physical.
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Post by Techguy on Jul 29, 2006 17:04:24 GMT -5
I don't think it was only the speed of the chase that turned Det. Goren off. I think that after he found out Prof. Hitchens was really the UO, he didn't want to end up being served up on a platter like her other victims. The UO is the human (and I'm using that term very loosely) equivalent of a cross between a female black widow spider and a praying mantis, especially with respect to how they treat their mates.
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Post by maherjunkie on Jul 30, 2006 10:42:27 GMT -5
But are you saying her quick volley turned him off that much? I can't imagine a woman's flirtation that circumvents the chase would be that much of a moodkiller. I don't see what he picks up on in that one moment that shows her true nature.
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Post by sarahlee on Jul 30, 2006 14:48:15 GMT -5
"... he didn't want to be served up on a platter like her other victims.."
This makes sense with the way the writers have built up Goren's personality; he will not let her (UO) wiles overcome his ethics or sense of survival. He will not be seduced into being the helpless prey. Master manipulatours can get to believe that they cannot be played, Goren is aware if this and is alert to the game. (Most of the time.)
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Post by Techguy on Jul 30, 2006 18:05:34 GMT -5
The UO isn't merely a sexual predator, she's also an emotional and psychological one--and all the more dangerous because of it. In order for her victims to succumb to her manipulations, the UO must somehow convince them to abandon and reject their personal values. For someone so morally centered like Det. Goren, dancing with the devil that is the UO is not an option. He knows it, and so does she. And so she seeks to destroy him because she can't bear the thought that someone actually exists who refuses to dance to her lethal siren song.
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Post by sarahlee on Jul 30, 2006 18:32:26 GMT -5
Beautiful. That's what I meant to say.
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Post by Cassie on Jul 30, 2006 18:45:43 GMT -5
. For someone so morally centered like Det. Goren, dancing with the devil that is the UO is not an option. He knows it, and so does she.s And so she seeks to destroy him because she can't bear the thought that someone actually exists who refuses to dance to her lethal siren song. If Nicole so wanted to destroy Goren, she has had plenty of opportunites to walk up and put a syringe to him. I think she soooo wants to understand him, to understand, why he turned out the way he did., and why she went down the darker road. You see that in the "Grow" episode.
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Post by Cassie on Jul 30, 2006 18:50:13 GMT -5
I think his sexual interest quickly fizzled out in "Anti-Thesis". It seems like after she said "I can't believe you'd have to chase very long".. he goes from intrigued to suspicious at lightning speed. I agree, the yellow, then red lights went on there. It was a great scene all the way around. Played wonderfully by all 3 actors. He was very much attracted to her at first sight, but it ended quickly. I love the way Eames stepped in front of him, to protect him from Nicole. She was looking out for her friend.
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Post by Techguy on Jul 31, 2006 0:20:42 GMT -5
Cassie, I'm not just talking about physical destruction, I'm also talking moral, emotional, psychological--the entire essence of what it means to be human. Killing Goren outright (physically) won't satisfy the UO--she has to find some way to tamper with his moral compass, to completely break him emotionally and psychologically--to make him belong to her.
She might have been able to mess with Goren's psyche, but he has emerged the stronger for it. Both he and she know she hasn't been able to accomplish her objective, and most likely deep down she realizes it won't ever happen. But that doesn't mean she won't stop trying.
What's that saying about how some people keep doing the same thing over and over hoping to get a different result? That's the UO for you, in spades. And it's also another big reason the UO saga has grown stale.
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Post by Cassie on Jul 31, 2006 4:40:14 GMT -5
I agree with what your saying that Nicole wanted to destroy him morally, before putting the syringe to Goren. And the saga was getting stale, but I feel her storyline changed in “Grow“. All her attempts to screw Goren, put her thinking in a different direction. And that's the beauty of it
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Post by Techguy on Jul 31, 2006 7:18:38 GMT -5
I'm not quite ready to accept the idea that the UO has in any way grown or changed for the better. And even if she is having second thoughts, it in no way negates her prior behavior. She was and is a killer, and from what I've seen this leopard hasn't changed its spots.
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