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Post by Sirenna on Jan 2, 2007 15:45:05 GMT -5
The aria is devastating precisely because the guilty finally realize they will sow what they reap, as a result of the choices they made. Yes, sometimes it's tragic and full of loss but very often it's redemptive and hopeful. Something in them or those around them are better off, not happier as rue2112 pointed out, but in some twisted way mentally healthier. Well maybe just clearer. To me, Goren brings truth, whether you'll like it or not.
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Post by Sirenna on Jan 2, 2007 19:05:46 GMT -5
Ms. SenGupta said in her interview that Goren left the army because "he’d decided not to make a career out of the Army, was tired of moving around so much and wanted to be in New York to be closer to his mother."
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Jan 2, 2007 19:44:22 GMT -5
For most of the episodes, I'm not finding 'redemption'. Retribution, yes, or an attempt at rebalancing right and wrong, but the body count is high and there are so many innocents in the body count whose incidental deaths will (in supposition) go on to affect the next generation - ie, thinking here especially Chinosierie - or just serve no purpose at all, past the intial crime whose perps have been nabbed and whose ill-gotten gains have been negated - thinking here Cherry Red. Not that I'm looking for redemptive wraps on these eps - in fact, I am relieved these stories don't have a tidy, closed end.
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Post by Sirenna on Jan 2, 2007 19:57:31 GMT -5
Hey there Betsey! I wasn't expecting to hear from you until you came back from your trip.
Ok, how about cold comfort or Anti-thesis?
BTW redemptive doesn't equal closed ending, neat and tidy for me. I'm thinking about a change in the character. After Goren's sung the sermon to them they realize why they are bad, or that they could have been good if they'd chosen another path, or that they are bad and can't or won't do anything about it, some of the villians acknowledge Goren's got a point but can't change like Nicole. Some know they are evil, revel in it and Goren's understanding of their depravity and just don't give a crap like Connie in Sound Bodies.
And they always realise. That's key and we, the viewers, see that realization in their expressions during that final scene too often for it to be mere co-incidence. It's imperative that the villians or victims leave with some knowledge of not just who they are but how they came to be so. It's why janet and others notice reflections and mirrors. It's why Techguy often sees the ending as a Dorian Grey moment. It's why you, Elizabeth, imagine, beyond the end of the episode as an anguished scream. Look, even the most monstrous murderer thinks that what he is doing has a purpose strongly enough to risk everything in his compulsion to see it to the end. When Goren talks to the criminal, he is stripping away all their illusions and leaving them stark and ready to start again if they so choose.
The common thread is that by the end of the episode we, the characters and the viewers, leave with a sense of clarity; a heightened sense of why they committed their crimes, or why, even though their guilt is absolute, knowing their motivation, while never excusing it, can mitigate the depth of their crime. Some, not all regret what they've done and want to do better like in Want and remorse in the Catholic code is redemptive.
Sometimes it's the victims, not the murderers that need Goren to fill in the missing piece. When he does, only then are they able to arrest the terrible things that have been done to them. More than that, they are able to start a new life like the son in Cold Comfort, the children in Tomorrow, and the daughter in Suite Sorrow. Or not as they so choose.
At the end of most of the episodes, we, the viewers, are more aware of our environment. It is ripped from the headlines TV after all. The knowing somehow, to me, seems like a step beyond just plain evil, an elevating sense of self-awareness that goes back to what I see as Goren's quest for TRUTH. He leaves them, and by association us, with the tools to save ourselves and they (and us) are left with the choice to use them or not.
(I know, I know all this could mean is that Goren's managed to turn them into better, more wily criminals from having told them how he caught them but, hey, nothing's perfect.)
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noc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 127
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Post by noc on Jan 2, 2007 20:06:43 GMT -5
I think that fact that the little girl is saved in one of the Nicole Wallace stories is redemption. She was saved from evil because Nicole finally acknowledged who she was. There are a few other examples, but it is usually retribution. I'm bad about episode names and I just watched the Bravo reruns on Sunday.
I think things are too often neatly wrapped up for our benefit, but that's tv. My favorite Dead Zone was when he was on a jury and each of the 12 people were judging the guy guilty based on their past histories with criminals. We never did find out who killed the clerk, and we aren't sure if the guy who got away was a "good guy" or a bad guy who was just caught for the one crime he didn't actually commit. I like that kind of tv. You often get that on CI (such as War at Home is very flawed but has some good points about how war changes issues of right and wrong). But, sometimes Goren is too much of a genius, the killer confesses immediately, etc.
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Post by Sirenna on Jan 2, 2007 20:32:26 GMT -5
Noc:
Goren does seem to zero in on the one and only deciding factor, solve the crime all in time for dinner, which has become a bit rote. I want to see Goren understand his criminals by understanding himself. I don't see how he could get into their heads if he couldn't manoevre himself out of his own first.
Sometimes I'd like to see him in the middle of singing his aria, arrogance in full bloom, only to be struck by something new, maybe even by the villian explaining the actual lay of the land to him His expression alone would be worth the price of the ticket.
The only time this ever happened as far as I can tell was in Anti-thesis during Nicole's interview when she brought to light his problem with Daddies and pricked his armour by showing him she'd discovered his and his mother's details. It forced him to be a better detective than he knew he needed to be before he entered the room. It forced him to exercise control and dare to jump into the abyss when he engaged her in their tit-for-tat game.
So great to watch!
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Post by Techguy on Jan 2, 2007 20:55:02 GMT -5
Redemption vs. retribution is a powerful subject. Does anyone mind if there is a separate thread for it in General CI Discussion so we can pursue the subject further?
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Post by Sirenna on Jan 2, 2007 22:16:05 GMT -5
Fine with me. Could you put a helpful link on this page too since it naturally stems from our discussion here.
Hey, who thought we'd still have something to say about Anti-thesis three years after it aired?
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Post by Techguy on Jan 2, 2007 23:22:25 GMT -5
Redemption and retribution. More on the subject can be discussed Here
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