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Post by Patcat on Jul 31, 2006 9:05:41 GMT -5
I agree, Techguy. Just because she's capable of doing the right things for Gwen doesn't mean that Nicole isn't still evil. Even after this spurt of good acts, Nicole calls Bobby and blames him for her loss of Gwen. And she then kills Bernard. Certainly Bernard is the least innocent of her victims, but it is murder.
Patcat
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Post by SarahIvy on Jul 31, 2006 13:15:18 GMT -5
I think Techguy is dead on- that Nicole's desire to "destroy" Goren is not centered on killing him but breaking him. As evidenced by the whole Croyden thing. She resents what a good person Goren is, and resents that he can judge her horrific crimes and can see what she really is and where she came from. So it's not only that she wants him physically wiped off the face of the planet (something she could do fairly easily), she wants to prove to herself for her own self-preservation that he's wrong and not what he seems. In order for her to go on as she is, she needs to not have his morals and insights shining a bright light on her glaring weak spots. I was not exactly impressed with her in Grow in terms of changing....she hasn't changed, she was just effected in a way she didn't expect by the little girl and reacted accordingly. After all, she then used even that situation to come back around to accusing Goren of ruining things for her, so she's really still on the exact same track of nastiness she's always been on.
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Post by Cassie on Jul 31, 2006 16:55:24 GMT -5
To each its own, I guess. I still have hope for her…I have always seen Goren as a bright light in a dark world. Never in a million years did I expect the storyline to go down the road of “Grow”. And I agree her “spots” might not change.. That’s entirely up to the writers. But, the road they put her on in “Grow” gives me hope.
Should a person like Nicole come my way….and I see them thinking, I would encourage them. rather then point out what all they have done wrong. I wouldn’t keep telling them, that there is no hope for them, that they can not change. Don’t get me wrong, I still feel she deserves the death penalty, for what all that she has done. But I see her thinking, questioning her actions, even if she keeps falling back on her old habits. Her murders do not seem as selfish do they? The uncle in Grow, and Bernard, those murders she was looking out for someone other then herself. (And Yes, I agree Murder is Murder) I see an attempt by Nicole to do the right thing And that is what I am rooting for. And as for her calling Goren up and hissing at him, cause she did do the right thing….. hey, who hasn’t’ done that? I think for a person in her shoes, that might be a normal reaction. And it shows me that she is struggling within herself.
I think also maybe as much as I love the storyline of Nicole more now, because of “Grow” because I am hoping that she is changing for the better. You may say you hate her…hate the storyline (strong word there, I know, and not exactly yours) but I think you may really love, hating Nicole, because she is so evil. You want to see justice triumph by her demise. Which is ok. You and I just want different endings for the character of Nicole. Which is ok. I still feel she deserves the death penalty, even if she is remorseful, but I want her to understand why.
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Post by ragincajun on Dec 26, 2006 15:49:43 GMT -5
Just and interesting thought. We learn Bobby's Middle intial is O. Wonder what middle name his mom would have given him maybe Orthello? since she was a librarian. Robert Orthello Goren?
RC
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Post by Patcat on Dec 26, 2006 23:15:34 GMT -5
It may have been in this board's first interview with Ms. SengTupa, but I've read the O doesn't stand for anything. It's a tribute to Alfred Hitchcock's NORTH BY NORTHWEST and Roger O. Thornhill, the character played by Cary Grant.
Patcat
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rue721
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 101
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Post by rue721 on Jan 1, 2007 4:34:40 GMT -5
I didn't really get the feeling that Bobby understood Nicole at all... I think that was the point of the episode.
In the end (of Anti-Thesis anyway), he's STILL bewildered and upset that she's fled. It's Eames who has to give him a little reality check.
Nicole and Bobby both get their way through emotional manipulation. It’s just that Bobby has limits, and Nicole doesn’t. And it’s hard for him to accept that.
Honestly, I don't think Nicole is too hard to understand. She's a sociopath who knows how to use her pretty face. And the sex angle isn't too unique- I think every pretty girl learns to use her body to get her way... At heart, Nicole is just a shark: maybe she's too selfish to empathize with, but she's not too hard to predict.
But Goren doesn't really understand his own selfish instincts too well, so how can he understand those of someone who is only guided by selfishness?
After all, he seems like a guy who never seems to do what's best for HIMSELF: no wife, no kids, a job that doesn't pay especially well, nor has a lot of room for advancement... I'm not saying that those are the things that should be at the top of everyone's priority list, but it's a conscious choice not to persue the things that society most values. He's a cop who devotes himself to a sick mother. Talk about unselfish.
Meanwhile, Nicole's the epitome of selfishness. She couldn't even care for her own little daughter.
I mean, personally, I don't think Nicole's manipulations are so tough to sidestep. She wants to have sex with you? Sure, just keep it casual. She wants to ask you intrusive questions? Just blow her off. When you give an inch to Nicole, she'll take a mile! She relies on seduction, and once you care for her, she's got you in her power. And she'll use that power however she can, to get whatever SHE needs.
So, the way to protect yourself against her, is to refuse to be sucked into her emotion-manipulation vortex. If Bobby wanted to mess with her head, he would sleep with her, then dump her flat. So why doesn’t he? Because her lawlessness is too scary? Because if he become selfish at all, he’ll give in to it totally?
I don’t really buy it, but maybe that’s because I’m none too selfless myself.
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rue721
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 101
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Post by rue721 on Jan 1, 2007 6:02:50 GMT -5
I think that "releasing people from their mental chains" IS messing with their heads, even though it's for a moral reason. Especially how he does it- he doesn't just tell anyone a situation straight out, he manipulates them into reacting in a certain way, and then uses their own reactions as proof against them. I'm not saying that it's the wrong thing to do, but I think that IS manipulative, and it's also a compulsion with this character. Sometimes he doesn't even release them, but only expose them. Like in Cherry Red- no one was any wiser at the end, he only exposed a few buried nerousis and brought up a lot of buried resentment. How many people go home happier and more fulfilled after spending time with Goren? Hopefully he WON'T turn his analysis on himself, since his track record for spreading cheer via psychological minipulation is pretty bleak! People become MORE basic in their desires after listening to him- because all the lesser desires are stripped away, and only the one desperate one is left. He's just as compulsive as she is- and I think any compulsion for emotional manipulation is a little disturbing! How helpful is it, for the individual? Is ignorance really bliss when it comes to self-knowledge? Does the motive behind manipulation matter? The ends justifying the means, I guess? I love watching the show, but that kind of pupeteer string pulling would be pretty scary in real life! Sorry about pulling up the oldies- I just saw this episode yesterday on the Bravo marathon! I'm still a newbie at all this
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Post by Cassie on Jan 1, 2007 13:04:16 GMT -5
Hi Rue721 I really liked what you said about Goren and Nicole, but I dont think Goren was self-sacrificing when it came to his mother. He was more Co-dependent. Which is what Nicole probably saw in him. He hadn't broken the apron strings. So his strings were easier to pull. Your post, sure does make me wonder more about Goren, and his own shortcomings. Thanks
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Post by Techguy on Jan 1, 2007 15:55:12 GMT -5
How many people go home happier and more fulfilled after spending time with Goren? LOL! Not that many I'm sure.
Goren has a love/hate relationship with authority--he needs structure to impose order on what he perceives (quite accurately) to be an ultra-chaotic world. But the non-conformist individualist that he is bristles against being controlled. He's a highly complex contradiction, and all the more interesting because of it.
I don't think he has many dates, and when he does, not too many end up with follow-ups. Can you imagine the probing investigative conversations that could go on? I wonder how many of his dates went home "happier and more fulfilled" afterward?I dont think Goren was self-sacrificing when it came to his mother. He was more Co-dependent. I don't think Goren's attentions to his mother are entirely altruistic either. I think Mom provides a convenient excuse for his emotional distance and inability to establish deep personal relationships. Now that Mom is terminally ill, Goren realizes his "reason for being" is slipping away and his equilibrium is going to be disrupted--permanently. For someone who likes his ducks all lined up in a row, the prospect of his anchor being severed has to be daunting.
I also now think this is why the UO vexes him so--SHE knows and acknowledges Goren's shortcomings and ambivalent feelings even if he does not. And she uses them to her advantage because Mom, while being Goren's anchor, is also his Achilles heel. The UO is going to aim her arrows at that heel as long as it suits her purpose. After Mom is gone, Goren is either going to tend to that heel and deal with the UO once and for all, or else he'll latch on to the UO as his new anchor, thus compromising his moral compass completely and ultmately destroying him.
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Post by Sirenna on Jan 1, 2007 16:15:24 GMT -5
Wow, rue721, you've expressed a lot of what I see in Goren too.
He is manipulative and selfish in the cold pursuit of justice. Although I'm not sure if you're saying he's selfish, rue. The only time I remember him pausing before going ahead was in See Me (the one with the schizophrenic doctor who was unaware of his illness and compulsion to score the eyes out of his patients -one of my favourite episodes btw ) Even though he paused to consider what revealing the doctor's schizophrenia would do to the doctor who obviously wasn't ready to accept the truth, he went ahead anyway. This is one of the defining character elements of Goren vs other detectives for me. On the surface, he's catching the criminal at the end of the episode just like all good murder mysteries do.
On the other hand, he is ruthless in his pursuit to uncover truth or the 'why' of everything, digging until the sore is oozing and foul to see - some of the imagery in why we see him sniff and poke the vilest things, perhaps? I've called him cold before because of this single-minded pursuit. Sometimes in the villains, as you've said, it drives all other characteristics out and all that remains is the villain's basest one, the only clearly motivating the crime. It's a scapel- clean cut to the chase and makes for a satisfying ending to a detective story.
On the other, other hand, sometimes it makes the villains MORE than they originally were; more pathos-ridden or complicated or more evil for that matter. Watching Goren break them is all the more sorrowful, humbling or unnerving for me to witness as a viewer. For instance in the episode, Want, I've never wanted to give a cannabalistic lobotomizing villain before!
Sometimes that makes Goren fearless in a saviour sort of way and one of the reasons why I find this Goren character so interesting. For instance in Cold Comfort, Goren revealed to the son how guilty his father was by giving the son the tools (the PDR) that lead him to realize he, the son, was losing his mind. To reveal such a painful truth and such a deep betrayal to someone who, most of the time, was incapable of comprehending any of it was a fearless thing for Goren to maneouvre since the obvious choice would have been to let him continue to live in a cotton-wool world where everyone protected him but no told him the truth. The son's only power or control was being able to understand what was happening to him no matter how hard and make his own choice as to right and wrong. Probably one of the last conscious things the son was able to do for himself and his family. Goren gave him clarity when everyone else around him was afraid to.
Granted though, in Cold Comfort, Goren was true to his bleak batting average of spreading cheer vs psychological manipulation. Can you imagine playing truth or dare at a party with this guy?! As for old threads, don't apologise! I LIKE people pulling up the oldies and sticking to point. It fosters much better discussion than random thoughts spread here and there. Feel free to pull up as many old ones as you like!
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Post by Sirenna on Jan 1, 2007 16:26:58 GMT -5
I don't think he has many dates, and when he does, not too many end up with follow-ups. Can you imagine the probing investigative conversations that could go on? I wonder how many of his dates went home "happier and more fulfilled" afterward? LOL! I dont' know how many times I've told him to leave the tie clip at home. Stubborn as well as selfish
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noc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 127
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Post by noc on Jan 1, 2007 20:54:12 GMT -5
I watched the Bravo marathon, too. I thought it was interesting to watch the Nicole Wallace episodes yet again. My thoughts to recent posts:
1. I think Bobby is co-dependent with his mother. Nicole brought up that he originally blamed his mother for his father leaving (a common issue) as a child. It appears his mom knows how to lay on the guilt (War at Home, I believe) and uses it to tie him to her as an adult. I was trying to decide if he is upset that his anchor and a reason to emotionally detach will be gone when she dies, or if he feels guilty for not being with her when she is so near death. I've been missing Tuesday night episodes, so this may have been answered. 2. Was it in Anti-Thesis where Bobby is ordering a veal dish and he's flirting with the waitress? (something about liking to watch her write it down 4 days in a row). I should reread the old posts. He's mentions old girlfriends every now and then, and my impression, has been that he's with them until he forces them to break up with them. I got that impression in Season 1 when he invited Irene to the poker game, and she kind of teased him about not going to the next stage. 3. I agree with Rue721 that Nicole is not that hard to figure out. It's kind of like Hannibal Lector in Silence of the Lambs "don't let her/him get in your head". I'd say after her body count, she probably wants to kill you when you disappoint her. That doesn't take a call to the psychic hotline to figure out. 4. I also agree that Bobby is very manipulative and compulsive about "solving the crime". We've gone into that quite a bit on the boards, but I always get more insight from the discussion. 5. I wouldn't have an issue with seeing Goren's and Eame's relationship reflect that they've been partners for five years. I just don't want it to get soapy. I liked knowing that Eames asked for a transfer early on. That seemed pretty realistic.
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Post by Sirenna on Jan 1, 2007 21:22:13 GMT -5
Anti-thesis is definately one of my favourites. I never get tired of watching it. Not so Great Barrier which was a bit proposterous.
I think it was A Person of Interest (or perhaps Grow) when she was married to the rich American and became an American citizen and couldn't, in her compulsively destructive way, stop herself from taunting Bobby with the news.
I got the same impression that he breaks up with old girlfriends rather than they with him in Silver Lining when he says to Eames in the closing scene, that not being allowed to do what one loves to do makes one insane. I got a sense that Bobby was taking the knowledge of the case and applying it to himself personally - maybe a girlfriend or maybe the demands of his mother? I'm not sure yet.
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Jan 2, 2007 4:28:38 GMT -5
...he doesn't even release them, but only expose them. Like in Cherry Red- no one was any wiser at the end, he only exposed a few buried nerousis and brought up a lot of buried resentment. Absolutely. He peels them like an onion, stripping away layer after layer of defense mechanism, exposing them to themselves. It's exquisite and at heart it is remorseless, whatever psychological tactic - empathy or aggression - is used. Great line again! Mostly they go to jail . . I've always envisioned Goren's 'subjects' post-interrogation as inwardly reduced to the psychological equivalent of Edward Munch's "The Scream'. As Goren says in 'Cherry Red', instead of driving off into the sunset, they are on their way to mental and physical Hell.
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Post by Techguy on Jan 2, 2007 12:02:38 GMT -5
I've always viewed Goren's post-aria subjects (victims?) like Dorian Grays, seeing their reflections in the interrogation room glass. The aria is devastating precisely because the guilty finally realize how and what they have become, how they will sow what they reap, as a result of the choices they made.
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