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Post by Patcat on Sept 20, 2006 11:01:51 GMT -5
Gage clearly abandoned his daughter--perhaps more like sacrificed her--to his work. I wonder if he also sacrificed his "son"--Goren. Perhaps his warm greeting to Goren was a ruse to get into the case? He certainly spends a great deal of time through the rest of the episode trying to convince Goren either to redeem Gage or to become him.
I'm not sure how close Goren was to Jo, but I wonder if in giving up his mentor--who I think would have to be destroyed completely by the revelation he missed the fact that he was raising a serial killer--Goren also gave up a sister.
Patcat
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Post by mikeyrocks on Sept 20, 2006 11:02:10 GMT -5
I quite liked this episode - Can't say I loved it BUT overall everything was fairly well done IMO : )
Was very impressed with VDO's acting in this episode.
I myself really LIKE Captain Ross - I like his straightforward Take no prisoners attitude - Really good addition to the cast in my opinion.
Being a Loganite - Can't wait until next week LOL!! From the previews - I THINK - I already like Wheeler : )
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Post by Metella on Sept 20, 2006 11:31:51 GMT -5
Perhaps no one has mentioned Eames being senior because of all the pre-season speculation as LOCIfan mentioned - but I have always thought Eames was the senior partner; while others felt that Goren was - so I was glad to put that topic to rest.
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Post by avemah on Sept 20, 2006 12:36:17 GMT -5
Just wanted to add that I too really enjoyed this episode. I wasn't spoiled by all the previews, so I had no idea that Jo was the killer until about 5 minutes before Goren figured it out. I prefer to be surprised the first time anyway, makes the episode more meaningful for me.
At the risk of repeating many of the previous posters, I loved that Eames managed to rescue herself, and I kept telling her to 'pull a MacGyver' and get out of there. Thank goodness that dog was there, though. I'm still not sure how they were able to get her out, with all the doors blocked. I may have to watch again (oh darn!)
As for the new captain, I'm going with the "he has to establish his own territory" line of thought. He'll settle in in a few episodes; I personally wouldn't go for it if he showed up and everyone is best friends. Like the reference to Casey on SVU--it took her a while to settle in, and that wasn't an easy transition either. Most transitions aren't easy--look at the whole Barek incident. It was finally realized by someone that it wasn't working and she left. If this captain doesn't work out by the end of the season, the Chief Of D's will certainly replace him.
One other thing I really liked was the insight from Declan into how he interrogates a criminal, and thus how Goren manages to get inside the criminal's minds. I found that very interesting. Maybe a little overstated as Declan explained, in interrogation, his technique, only to have Goren use that technique on Jo mere seconds later. And the look in Jo's eyes as she said she had decided to kill Eames! YIKES!!! I didn't catch exactly why she didn't kill Eames, something about her not being able to get back to her after sending the message to Bobby? either way, it allowed time for Eames to escape. whoosh!
Good opening to what promises to be an exciting season.
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Post by SarahIvy on Sept 20, 2006 12:49:08 GMT -5
First off...man, that was a lot of changes all at once! Different editing, different cinematography, different music, different lighting, new Captain, they even changed the sets around (windows in interrogation?)! The only familiar constants were Goren and Eames....and Goren was wearing jeans at work, which was a little baffling and weird in and of itself. But other than feeling totally at sea over all the differences I LOVED IT. I was really worried about the kidnapping being sappy and soapy. It totally wasn't. Phew. Go Eames!! I am SO glad she rescued herself, she broke it down all McGyver style! That was fantastic and so scary and tense. I'm so glad they gave Erbe such a crazy situation to chew on because both of them are such good actors but have to be so understated all the time. The new Capt. is going to rock, I think. He's sassy and bossy, but even though he was making me peevish at first with his territory marking, I thought it was great how he immediately backed off and put some trust in Goren's judgement once Eames got kidnapped. I think he's going to piss me off and give Goren a hard time (which is great in terms of making the show more interesting), but I also think I'm going to dig him for his straightforward ways. Count me among those looking forward to seeing how he and Logan interact next week Ok, so I admit I knew the second Declan walked in and totally ignored his distraught daughter that she had to be the killer....but I didn't mind because I thought the way it all progressed, with Goren being in a complete frenzy going back and forth, thinking it was Declan, getting more and more confused and frantic....then finally realizing it was the daughter was all fascinating. It was really well done and well acted. That last scene with Goren and Jo? Gave me chills, I tell you. Again I must say how much I love Martha Plimpton. And how messed up must Goren be feeling to realize that his "mentor" is just yet another example of a shitty father that's so self-absorbed he ignores/destroys his own children? Jeez, this should all do a world of good for poor Goren with all his Daddy issues But truly, I was quite tickled with this episode, I thought the acting and storytelling were top level and it was a wonderful start to the season.
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Post by madger on Sept 20, 2006 13:34:03 GMT -5
Does anyone else think that Declan realized it was his daughter when he and Goren were going over the time-line and Goren said that his phone call to Declan must have been what stopped the killer? there was a flicker of revelation and almost pride, then he seemed to dismiss the thought. What a way to get Daddy's attention!
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Post by netwit on Sept 20, 2006 16:09:50 GMT -5
First post. I liked the show. Love the intense portrayal of Bobby and the relaxed but smart Eames. Delighted she freed herself and did not play victim. Watching the story play out each week or day as I watch all the reruns, The characters are very different from other shows and I find them captivating.
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Post by urufu on Sept 20, 2006 17:49:01 GMT -5
Hey yall, last nights episode was awsome! One of the best yet I would have to say.
I figured out who the killer was almost immediately, once Eames said that Goren and the daughter new each other and that her father was Goren's mentor I knew it had to be her, thats just the kind of thing CI would do.
I thought Eames escape was brilliant, it showed that she can take care of herself, that she doesnt play the damsil in distress and wait for the white knight, but the hospital scences afterwards, and the fact that she didnt return to work right away, gave her the right amount of moratlity and it gave the whole scene a sence of reality, if you know what i mean.
Also I loved the whole thing with Joe, I think that was her name, how they,Goren and Joe, essentailly grew up the same way. Joe was what Goren could have been had he not become a cop, and Goren is what Joe could have become had she not become a serial killer. If you really want to get down to the psychology of it they are basically ying and yang. Im not as good with words as I would like so this probably doesnt make even the slightest sence, so please forgive me for my ramblings.
One last note, the captain was great. He was differnet than Deakins, though I really liked Deakins, I think its a good idea to have the new captain different than him; allthough if you remeber in One Deakins thought Goren "over thoguht" things all though he never came out and said it.
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vdofan1
Silver Shield Investigator
Made ya look....
Posts: 178
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Post by vdofan1 on Sept 20, 2006 18:18:25 GMT -5
Good points as usual catbird-- you're right, Goren should have been taken off the case. But this is TV (I keep reminding myself). I heard "Polly" not "Dolly" for Eames' bird. Did Jo kill the birdie too? After reading these posts about the bird's name, I had to go back and watch the episode again, (like I wasn't going to anyway.... LOL ) this time with the close captioning on. Based on that the name of the bird is "Polly".... Imagine my surprise when a little later on, I clearly hear Goren say a "white 1999 Honda" - while according to the close captioning Eames has a white 1999 "Toyota" -- and not a "Honda" So, I guess this isn't a definitive answer after all. ;D Oh, BTW.... I really enjoyed the episode. While it may be a bit much to say that based on one episode that this is going to be a great season, it's the way I feel. Not even any letdown having watched it again today.
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Post by Observer2 on Sept 20, 2006 18:26:24 GMT -5
Hi, Netwit, welcome to the board. Someone up-thread mentioned that “it's not my daddy's CI.” For me, the problem is that it’s not Balcer’s Criminal Intent. It is very obviously, even flagrantly, not Balcer’s Criminal Intent. Every difference emphasizes for me the fact that Balcer has left the series. And while I could enjoy any well-written show with these actors in it, the fact is that Goren is a very special character to me. And I simply don’t expect anyone but Balcer to be able to keep the writing of the character so perfectly true to someone who had a backstory like Goren’s. Balcer’s extraordinary understanding of what it’s like to be an adult who is still affected by childhood trauma is not something you can get from books or a consultant – you have to have lived it, or been close to someone who has, or found other ways to become really immersed in the experience. D’Onofrio will do what’s possible to keep Goren true, but he can’t control what the writers decide to have Goren do and say. So I’ve been pretty bummed by the fact that Balcer left. Which means I’m not at my most objective, right now. It will be a while before I can tell whether I like the new style of writing and production or not. Or, more likely, which parts I like and which parts I don’t. On the other hand, within that new style, what the actors did with what they were given was absolutely brilliant. The intensely dramatic content of the story gave them a lot to work with, and they came through beautifully. The only weak spot I saw was when Eames turned and Jo knocked her out... but based on Erbe’s other acting I’m blaming the writing and the directing for that (as well as for the fact that I can’t for the life of me figure out how Jo could have hidden, and then gotten close enough to hit Eames without being seen, in the house we saw on screen). The rest of Erbe’s acting in that scene (and throughout the episode) was dead-on and very convincing. Like others, I saw echoes of One... right down to a stressful scene between Goren and an authority figure, and a female suspect chewing on the side of her thumbnail. Were those echoes accidental? Unconscious? Deliberate? A new producer launching his own version of the series? His own episode one? Something else I found interesting was that Declan reminded me just a bit of Croyden, in face, voice and manner. If deliberate, that was a nice, subtle touch. If coincidental, it was an interesting coincidence that, for me, added to the complex father issues being dealt with. I like the new pictures in the opening credits. Nice shots of the new Captain with the detectives, and great shots of Eames and Goren together. Even in the credits there seems to be more of a balance between the two. I also really like the title. As Patcat pointed out, there are many layers and levels of meaning in it – a classic CI-style title. I like the new Captain. I didn’t expect to like him this quickly. I expected to be jaundiced at first towards anyone trying to replace Deakins. But he’s straightforward, good in a crisis, and able to change his decisions when the situation warrants it. He seems to be a good leader in a classic kind of way, which may be part of why he wants someone keeping an eye on Goren. Goren is non-standard – a bit of a wild card – and may not be as much of a team player as Ross likes – notice that the thing Ross remembers most about Gage is that he “...sold out his whole...team.” Plus, Ross had a gut-level contempt for Gage’s treatment of Jo – that’s gotta be a good sign. The actor has enough presence to hold his own on the same screen with D’Onofrio, and can make Ross come off as a legitimate commanding officer while looking *up* at one of his detectives... I’m expecting good things from this character. Like others, I can’t wait to see how he gets along with the *other* Major Case team. I kind of thought the last scene was a waste, and would've liked it to pack more of a punch. Some hint of how Goren felt about learning that his mentor's daughter was the killer. Not necessarily in dialoge, but just some clue as to whether Goren was feeling guilty or wounded or a combination, or just some clue about how he was processing the outcome of the case. Locifan, I usually agree with you... but not this time. I found that scene intense and deeply poignant. Goren’s affect was complex in some moments, but I thought that his sadness and regret were clear in parts of that scene. As he watched her taken away he seemed close to tears. There was a clue in the dialog, as well, when he apologized for being so caught up in Declan’s world that he failed to see what she was going through. Like Metella, I’ve been convinced from early on that Eames was the senior partner. It was nice to have that confirmed. One thing I haven’t seen anyone else mention is the fact that Goren apparently took off his tie while talking with Jo about her roommate’s death. That tie does not reappear... ever. We don’t see him wearing a tie again until after the first time he visits Eames in the hospital – after which he apparently goes home, gets a little sleep and finally changes clothes. The reason the disappearing tie is interesting is that Eames was blindfolded with a man’s tie... and Jo's father wears bowties. I just thought that was interesting. (I suppose I shouldn’t mention that the magic, disappearing tie also magically switched its position. When we first see it, the wide part of the tie is to Eames’ right side. Later, it’s reversed, with the wide part to her left side. Almost as though it had been taken off and put back on... though Eames said it had not been taken off. Oops. Someone didn’t pay as much attention to continuity as they could have...)
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Post by NikkiGreen on Sept 20, 2006 20:20:30 GMT -5
Gee, it's good to read your observations again, O.
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Post by Patcat on Sept 20, 2006 20:31:49 GMT -5
Yes, Observer, good to have you back!
I'm also concerned about Mr. Balcer's departure, but I do think that this episode was true to everything we've already been told about Goren.
Patcat
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Post by Summerfield on Sept 20, 2006 20:59:52 GMT -5
The ties that binds. Please, let's talk about the cufflinks!
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Post by Cassie on Sept 20, 2006 21:35:00 GMT -5
Not to be a party pooper, at work today, friends who are Law & Order fans shared with me. That they know LOCI is my favorite show, but they hated last nights episode. They were totally disgusted with the kidnapping of Eames, I was quite surprised cause the one guy always talks about the show with me. He was shaking his head in complete disgust, saying that were going with the hokey mission impossible theme of Eames freeing herself!!
This concerns me cause I feel only about 1% of the fans really talk on line about the show. And that 1% are die hard fans. I don’t think we are as objective, LOCI is our baby. And today was the first time, that I ever felt there was trouble with how the whole population of fans may feel about the show.
I still totally enjoyed last night show, I liked the new Captain, but I had a feeling I would. I like Eric Borsgian's work. I wasn’t crazy about Declan the mentor, but Madger, you got me wondering when you asked if anyone else thought that Declan might have realized it was his daughter when he and Goren were going over the time-line. Maybe, cause he was already wondering how did Eames cell phone get in his bag..... But I also wonder don't you think he knew while raising her that he could be grooming her for some kind of nasty fate? I don’t know. A show like this, could have been a two hour movie instead. I don’t like Declan, but I want to understand him better. He appears too crazy for Goren to be hanging out with.
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Post by janetcatbird on Sept 20, 2006 21:50:29 GMT -5
Wow, a day of class and look what I got to catch up with.
I noticed the music, but I'm not sure I liked it. I mean, I'm in choir so the vocal track was cool, but the overdone menacing Synthesizer Percussion of Dramatic Tension just gets annoying and distracting--especially cause they used it what felt like once every act. (And is it just me or were the chung-chungs missing? What's up with that?)
LOCIfan, I'm with Observer about Goren's reaction. I personally am grateful D'Onofrio didn't go much more than that. We know it hurts, but he's not about to fall apart in the police station, not with a new supervisor when his partner's not around. He can go home, cry, and look through his scrapbooks on his own time, like the rest of us.
Caseyswife, I don't think Eames survived because of what rubbed off from Goren. No offense to him, but that's giving him too much credit and her not enough. She's been a cop and dealt with sickos before, not just with Goren. To me, not screaming is determination and strength that "He won't get the better of me," not "Oh, if Goren were here he'd tell me to keep quiet." When she looked at Goren in the hospital, that to me seemed You know that was hard, but you understand I did it. I'm shaky, but I held on."
Darmok, I also loved the "talk about guns" line. Hee! Some bit of humor in all this.
I still like the captain. We don't know what Goren's record is--we see him work confessions, but we don't know how they hold up in court. Ross knows that Goren is a bit of a maverick, he knows Deakins left under shady circumstances, and he probably knows (or can at least guess) that Deakins still has the loyalty and respect of most of the squad. He's probably just as much a bossman with the rest of the detectives, we just don't see it. Once he establishes authority and an understanding, things will probably ease up. It's actually a bit of a cliche for a new police captain to have such a set-up. But I like Bogosian's presence.
As to Jo, how sad is it that "Watch me Daddy" got into some weird form of "Anything you can do I can do better"? Poor thing. Oddly enough, I didn't pick up on that much hatred of Goren. Resentment, certainly, but also enough of that profiler detachment to realize that Dad would have focused on anybody, Goren just happened to come along. THe kidnapping of Eames was, to me, not so much a strike at Goren personally as If Eames is taken, then Goren will be involved. If Goren is involved, then Dad will be involved, and if Dad's involved then he'll have to deal with me. Jo may be one seriously disturbed, creepy lady, but she broke my heart with "He'll have to listen to me now." Much like Neil Patrick Harris, at that I wanted to give her a hug. I'm a sap, I know, and I certainly wouldn't let her out of handcuffs to do it, but bless her heart...
(I mentioned on another thread that Martha Plimpton was on SVU some years ago. The episode "Denial" was pretty good--she did an excelent job and had some nice scenes with Fin.)
--Catbird
PS: Observer, good to see you here! And everybody else too, feels like old home week after the summer.
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