mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Nov 3, 2006 23:39:04 GMT -5
But why is he being stifled, especially by Ross? Is it the writing or is it the actor? Either way it's irrelevant, Goren was always challenged by something or somebody and he pretty much always overcame that challenge. The real question is why this yellow-belly Goren? Why is Goren submitting to Ross' assertiveness?
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Post by Cassie on Nov 4, 2006 6:13:51 GMT -5
I don't think Goren is yellow bellying. Maybe scratching his head at this moment trying to figure out what drives Ross. It's only 2 months into their work relationship. IF Goren cries foul, without reasonable cause. He could lose his job. Goren is a detective first. He must collect all of the information before presenting it. Also, since his mother is so ill, maybe she is his first priority. Not the jerk he works for.
The stage is being set for a big blow out between the two of them.
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Leticia
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 74
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Post by Leticia on Nov 4, 2006 7:58:51 GMT -5
I see Eames as a harden woman here, one who resents it when another woman falls, cause its makes her look bad. She wants to be the perfect female officer. Remember "Baggage" Jennie? Eames had Jennie's back. She understood what Jennie was up against working in a man's world. I see a different Eames. There is a fine line between tough and hard..... and I am beginning to think Eames needs a somebunny to soften her up....more then Goren needs a woman Oh I see. I agree then! Eames is a bit jaded and slightly resentful, you can see it as early as Crazy where she laments the "buddy boy system". It would be frustrating to see one case (when I recall the rookie mentioning a male partner?) not only being discussed, but *taught* as deterrent to women in a class that surely involved women! I am a little annoyed myself. Re Goren and Ross- I find myself nodding along with what has been written, but then wonder if I am just over analysing as I didn't see some of these subtleties before! I do miss the faint surprise that Deakins always had and couldn't hide when Goren pulled something unexpected out of his hat. Ross is doing very well at looking like he thought it all along and Goren should have got there sooner whenever a twist hits. Whether this is true or a power strategy seems clear... Anyway, I am enjoying Ross' presence, because that is a great undercurrent of drama that isn't having to be manufactured from outside the show or from unusual events, it's something that happens in every office and is still interesting to watch. Even if there is no blowout it is great to watch the little currents of resentment. Maybe it will be as it was with Carver, where after a while, they just settle down together.
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peachybc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 109
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Post by peachybc on Nov 4, 2006 8:42:47 GMT -5
As I recall from the live blog with Warren Leight, Leight mentioned something about CI stories showing office politics this year. I'd say the office politics subject is being presented via Ross. Let's throw a little tension into the office along with all the other problems this year. lol
To me Ross is being shown as a hands on captain, a smart man with an ego and a possible chip on his shoulder. He seems to be out to prove he's in control and can match wits with Goren. Or Ross is at least trying to prove that he's not intimidated by Goren either physically or mentally. "Me boss. You employee." Envision Ross with some gorilla chest pounding here. lol
Not sure this testosterone technique will carry much weight with Goren...or should I say the Goren of old, who I never saw as a man with an ego problem. Goren is just smart and takes pride in his work. Goren never felt a need to brag about anything or prove he knew more than anybody else; he just wanted to solve the crime.
Ross's attitude will no doubt continue to frustrate Goren and cause tension.
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untitled
Detective
Stuff the Fluff! Save Goren & Eames!
Posts: 274
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Post by untitled on Nov 5, 2006 1:04:26 GMT -5
Let me rephrase what I said previously Untitled - I'll be more specific - I meant that I was SUPRISED that Ross and Goren let it get so heated - Out in the open in front of Eames and basically the whole office. That doesn't seem like either of their styles. I suppose seeing as the NYPD dropped the case the first time around - Everyone was under more pressure to solve it fast. - Ah, I see. Logan and Eames being partnered would be the only thing they could do to keep me watching if D'Onofrio leaves. - I heard once D'Onofrio leaves so will Erbe. I remember noting to my husband how all the other characters on the show during the first season seemed incidental to Goren. - That's part of the reason I intially hated the show - I was like what was the point of the other charaters? Of Goren even having a partner. Don't forget the Ford vehichles as advertisment - I missed that. ::coughfordcarssuckcough cough::
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Nov 5, 2006 1:34:41 GMT -5
The stage is being set for a big blow out between the two of them. Goren decks Ross, and is reassigned to Staten Island. ( Note to FX crew: pls show Ross' bloodied teeth flying through the air. If poss., add crunch sound effects. Thx - WL)
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Leticia
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 74
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Post by Leticia on Nov 5, 2006 13:27:32 GMT -5
And hopefully a slow motion close up of his head snapping back and copious blood spraying from his mouth. And a blurry/stalker cam shot of him crashing to the floor. It would give CI some much needed oomph and gritty artistic credibilty.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 5, 2006 13:48:44 GMT -5
Ross's attitude will no doubt continue to frustrate Goren... And me. So far, I see Ross as being a general *ss. Once he starts making sense, if he ever starts making sense, he won't be as frustating to me. Nothing annoys me more than someone being hateful just to be hateful. Anyone notice Eames' reaction to Ross and Goren going at it? She looked surprised, and seemed to not know how to react. She had the same not knowing what to do reaction when Ross snapped at Goren to gain Beth's trust. (Is it me or did Goren have a smirky "Well, screw you, too" reaction when Ross walked away?) I find it odd that she didn't stick up for Goren but she did stick up for Goren in a roundabout way when she talked Ross into investigating the case more in Ross' office. The stage is being set for a big blow out between the two of them. Goren decks Ross, and is reassigned to Staten Island. ( Note to FX crew: pls show Ross' bloodied teeth flying through the air. If poss., add crunch sound effects. Thx - WL)I just cannot see Goren throwing a punch. Not because he's "too polite" but rather he just wouldn't have the nerve. I'd rather see Logan punch him. At least Logan has a history of really socking people. Regardless, I'd like to see both men punch Ross. At the same time! Ha Ha Ha Ha!! [quote author=untitled board=discussion thread=1162353303 post=1162706666] Don't forget the Ford vehichles as advertisment - I missed that. ::coughfordcarssuckcough cough::[/quote] A friend taught me these: FORD - Fix Or Repair Daily FORD - Found On the Road Dead
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Post by Techguy on Nov 5, 2006 14:14:20 GMT -5
Goren decks Ross, and is reassigned to Staten Island. ( Note to FX crew: pls show Ross' bloodied teeth flying through the air. If poss., add crunch sound effects. Thx - WL)And hopefully a slow motion close up of his head snapping back and copious blood spraying from his mouth. And a blurry/stalker cam shot of him crashing to the floor. If this ever happened I wouldn't just change the channel, I'd turn CI off for good.
On the other hand, if it was the UO getting the Sam Peckinpah slow-mo effect... ;D
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Post by caseyswife on Nov 5, 2006 17:16:25 GMT -5
My point exactly...since when Goren lets anybody stifle him. He never used to blink even when a suspect would throw awful sh!t (can I write that word?) at him. Now Goren is letting Ross' more assertive attitude take over his basic detective skills. I don't buy that! It doesn't make sense to me and I don't buy it, either. But why is he being stifled, especially by Ross? Is it the writing or is it the actor? First off, mimi and NM - these posts between the two of you have been awesome to read and think about! ;D Great conversation!! I don't think it is Goren being stifled or yellow or any of that - I think it is more of what has been going on in his job/life lately. The case dealing with Declan & Jo, the whole Wisnesky debacle, all that is going on behind the scenes with his Mom... Anyone would feel a bit off kilter and question their effectiveness after all that has happened. I don't like Ross' obvious rudeness, but I have a feeling that at some point something is going to happen that will hopefully change his attitude. And I agree with Techguy - if anyone is going to get punched like that on CI, it had better be the UO!! caseyswife
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Nov 6, 2006 10:39:33 GMT -5
This is so bizarre. I just watched the Masquerade clip, and I'm left with the feeling that Mimi AND NM are both right. They're seeing the same thing, just lighting it differently. For me, the scene with the Coke can was a WTF moment. I got the point of it, but I didn't get the reasoning.
This is the only extended footage I've seen of Ross, but my first thought is: jeez, maybe this ambiguity is a writing problem. Is Ross supposed to be an insultingly rude martinet who is obsessed with marking his territory? Probably not. Does Ross actively dislike Goren, and that makes Goren passively mute??? Probably not. Is Goren supposed to be cowed or losing his spine? Probably not. So what's going on? What are the writers trying to set up here? Conflict? Yeah fine, but.... Goren's acting strangely subdued and passive, Ross is being saddled with an contemptuous antagonism that is illogical given Goren's amazing arrest AND conviction record.
The dismissive gesture of the Coke can - that's what bugs me. Ross's wariness, fine, establishing his authority, fine. It's the contempt in that moment that seems so off-key, off-base. It just doesn't compute.
Maybe everything will fall into place by the end of the season. For now, I suspect that the scriptwriters are ricocheting around, trying to punchily fill the producer's brief to set up conflict, but it's coming out in ways that make me more conflicted than the characters.
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 6, 2006 11:08:01 GMT -5
I too am unsure about the whole Ross/Goren dynamic. But I've been watching both the "elevator" scene and the "coke can" scene, and I keep thinking back to Ross' very first words "I hear your partner has a reputation for overthinking things" (or words to that effect). In both scenes, when Goren tried to explain WHY he thought people were doing things [simon's childhood, and beth's living through her kid] Ross cut him off and sent him off to DO something.
I don't think he's purposely being an ass. I'm just starting to think that it's just that he's a results oriented, 'just the facts' kind of cop. Now we know he's not above playing people to get results, so its not like he's totally old school and by the book, but I don't think he gets how Goren works -- he never seems to let him talk. Not unlike Logan in "Stress Position" not wanting to hear Goren's "guess work."
I love characters that aren't wholey good or bad, and Ross is a nice mix of the two. He's certainly very impatient with Goren, but by the same token he does go to bat for his detectives with outsiders as others have mentioned. And if you can back up your theories, he usually buys them... If nothing else, he's good for discussion here on the board ;0)
Maybe if we stranded Ross and Goren in a Federal Prison with some murderous Corrections Officers, Ross would start to understand how Goren's brain is an asset and not a liability (hee hee).
effie
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Nov 6, 2006 11:17:49 GMT -5
when Goren tried to explain WHY he thought people were doing things [simon's childhood, and beth's living through her kid] Ross cut him off and sent him off to DO something. I don't think he's purposely being an ass. ...I don't think he gets how Goren works -- he never seems to let him talk. Not unlike Logan in "Stress Position" not wanting to hear Goren's "guess work." Ah, that makes sense. Or, I should say, you make sense. Now all I have to do is adjust to the fact that a show that was built around Goren explaining the Why of things is now going to be the show of Ross cutting him off with a ring-pull.
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 6, 2006 11:41:45 GMT -5
OK, so Liza's little 'put a purchased chicken in a roasting pan and call it homemade' song has been driving me crazy... but I think I finally tracked it down. Sort of. Its from 1946, and was performed by Judy in the 60's. Liza gets the dates wrong, but a fluid detail depending on which version she was remembering...
I don't know how it compares in obscurity to a certain Stephen Foster song, but in case you were wondering, here's the details...
Old Soft Shoe, The Words by Nancy Hamilton, music by Morgan Lewis, 1946 Introduced by Ray Bolger in the stage revue "Three to Make Ready" Performed by Judy Garland and Donald O'Connor as part of the Vaudeville Medley on Episode #7 of "The Judy Garland Show," taped September 20, 1963
Old Soft Shoe, The
When Me and my Alice were playing the palace in '25, There never was a word of , We never had heard this thing called jive We got the change to go into a dance There was just one dance alive. We gave them the old soft shoe.
Dances come, dances go like the changes of the moon. For that is always short and sweet. But you could still stop the show with a lazy, dazy tune and, The easy pitter patter of your feet.
We gave them the old soft shoe Yes Sir, We gave them the old Not the new again Soft Just the two again Shoe.
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 6, 2006 14:30:08 GMT -5
Something else re: Ross and results that just popped into my head...
In "Blind Spot" just before THE text message, Goren says he and Jeffries had stayed up all night cross-checking the video store customers against the NYPD database to see if anyone stood out as a suspect, but they had only come up with a few pops with minor beefs, and Ross says something like "You stayed up all night for THAT?"
No results, no point to it for Ross it seems.
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