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Post by Sirenna on Feb 9, 2007 9:55:51 GMT -5
All due respect intended and I hope I won't hurt anyone's feelings by disagreeing but I don't think we've been assuming that only women are abused and only men are abusers. In this episode just seems heavily weighted this way. I think the writers' had to choose a perspective and they chose her point of view. In other words, just to clarify my point, we, as a whole, are not tying to say abuse is gender specific.
ETA
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Post by mwendyr on Feb 9, 2007 10:36:39 GMT -5
When the credits rolled, just after you see Eames looking so forlornly, I just wanted to hug her. ((((((Eames)))))) I felt sorry for her, for the fact that she hero-worshipped someone who turned out to be unworthy. Poor woman, she's not having a great year. (On a side note: I drink Martini too) I thought the episode was interesting, and I won't even bother going into detail of what I hated about the opening sequence (audio wise) but I did love it visually. But, usually when you watch LOCI you see Goren and Eames interviewing people/suspects/witnesses and then they walk away, make a few comments and then there is a change of scene... but this episode we seemed to be getting alot more conversation between Goren and Eames inbetween their interviews instead. My biggest example is when they went to speak to the Husband whilst he was getting a rub down or whatever it was, we saw Eames and Goren walking towards the room, talking, and then we saw them leaving afterwards, talking some more. That really stuck out to me. I did like it because it was different but I hope that's not always going to be the case. Perhaps they do this now because they've lost their time date cards? I know they used those to replace establishing shots and small scenes that tell you where next but obviously they don't have those anymore so maybe that is why they did this instead in this episode. I thought the way we kept seeing people talking about Mrs Pagolis was alright for a while, and I thought that at the end Eames kinda represented every single woman we'd seen throughout the episode in those little blurbs but they did get annoying after awhile and they broke my attention away from the episode. It seemed a little out of place. I like Ross and I did like him in this episode. Who else thought his oldest kid looked very much like him? I know I did. It's nice to see he doesn't pick favourites and his warning to Eames was very well worded. Overall, I liked the episode and I'd definitely watch it again. The bar scene was nice, although again, a little out of place; like it was just put in at the last minute. I hope we don't get too many of those. Kudos to KE and VDO for their acting in this one. I thought they were both brilliant in it, 'cause you know I like subtle and I think KE does that so perfectly. She speaks more words with her face than she does with her lines. Wendy Hugs
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Post by Techguy on Feb 9, 2007 14:14:27 GMT -5
Has he ever called her kathryn that anyone remembers? Do you mean Vincent D'Onofrio the actor or Robert Goren the character? If it's Goren, the only time I recall him referring to Eames as Alex is when he's introducing her as his partner "Detective Alexandra Eames." Interesting. i would see Abuse as human before it is gender specific. So how does Goren interact with it here? Goren says Mrs. Pagolis shouldn't have bugged (tape recorded) her husband, she should have left him. He says this in the bar scene which is at the end of the video clip I posted earlier.
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Post by MissEllie on Feb 9, 2007 16:30:42 GMT -5
All due respect intended and I hope I won't hurt anyone's feelings by disagreeing but I don't think we've been assuming that only women are abused and only men are abusers. In this episode just seems heavily weighted this way. I think the writers' had to choose a perspective and they chose her point of view. I don't think anyone's assuming that at all, and I certainly didn't mean to imply anything otherwise in my comments. It was just that in this episode Mrs. P was not "abusing" but she was definitely "using" her husband and the news of his sordid activities to her advantage politically. Even though he was a ruthless, conniving SOB, he was still useful to her. She was "staying in because she's getting something out of it." No doubt women are most often the victims in an abusive relationship, but my comment was just an aside that it does happen the other way, too, and that is often overlooked or dismissed.
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Post by ruby77 on Feb 10, 2007 1:11:38 GMT -5
I just have one question for everyone about this ep that confused me a little bit. Why would the limo driver just come out and confess so easily about committing and planning the murder or were the writers of this ep running out of time/ideas on how to complete it? It just seemed a little too easy because they barely hounded him in the interrogation room.
And regarding Goren calling Eames "Alex" at times, he does call her Alex in that episode where he says "Alex, Queen of Sheba" about the murdered corrections officer? I don't recall the name of the ep. Anyone?
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Post by DonnaJo on Feb 10, 2007 9:28:06 GMT -5
I agree with you there, Ruby, on how easily the driver gave it up. None of the much - missed Goren psychologically probing & prodding for the confession. I would love to be privy to the deleted scenes from this ep. Wonder if they cut a scene of exposition concerning the limo driver for time's sake?
I also believe that sometimes the writers know in their heads the backstory of a character & don't realize the viewers do not. Just one more scene about the driver's motivation would have made all the difference for me.
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spits
Detective
Posts: 224
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Post by spits on Feb 10, 2007 9:35:55 GMT -5
ruby77 - I think the episode is "Baggage"...
DonnaJo - That's what I was thinking, exactly! That would have made the difference for me regarding whether this episode was just "good" and "that rocked"! I wonder if they cut that scene too...they could have done without the pedestrian scenes and put more time in the interrogation room.
I wonder what scenes were originally in this episode before it got moved (because it was supposed to air before Privilege, correct?).
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Post by hannah on Feb 10, 2007 15:01:15 GMT -5
In fact, the episode was quite insulting. Women are still presented as slave to their feelings and therefore can't be trusted to run for office or to objectively run a investigation! I'm confused about how you interpreted this. I thought she would have been great in office, but it was her husbands fault. He made her reputation look bad. It was'nt her who could'nt handle it- just him screwing it all up for her. And maybe she though a divorce would look bad for her? Or amybe she did love him. But, than why would she just let him die? Well, I thought it was a great episode. KE did great And I saw some of the old Goren. Like, the plant part and others; cant play the same character forever. Take any TV show that made it this far and look at the characters season one and compair them to the present season.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 10, 2007 19:21:04 GMT -5
When the credits rolled, just after you see Eames looking so forlornly, I just wanted to hug her. ((((((Eames)))))) I felt sorry for her, for the fact that she hero-worshipped someone who turned out to be unworthy. Poor woman, she's not having a great year. I didn't want to hug her, I was simply amused that she got a long coming rude awakening. While this episode is almost a sister to "Blind Spot", Eames' unwillingness to listen to anyone else and to be blinded by her own feelings was annoying to the point that I think she deserved the rude awakening. I agree with some others that Eames was a bit out of character here but, I see it as more of a botched attempt to to show the viewers one of Eames' weaknesses. We've seen so many of Gorens' that I have lost count. I don't mind seeing some real depth within Eames but like Mimi said, they didn't have to weaken her as a person or as a woman to show us her "blind spots". I liked this episode for one reason and one reason only - this one reminded us of Goren's near infallible instincts and what makes him such a great detective. Goren was cynical about Pagolis right off the bat, much to Eames' annoyance. He didn't have a logical reason for his cynicisms, just his gut instinct. In the end, his instinct was right. Goren's instincts has not been highlighted in quite a while and it was very refreshing to see him operating on that level again. Eames' response to Goren's "Are we alright?" was quite a chilly response. It's peculiar for her to suddenly be so icy to him. And the saga continues... I find it disappointing that Eames is able to balance Goren and is able to soothe and calm him in many ways but it appears when Eames is rattled, he cannot reach her. He chose not to press her, kinda giving an indication that she doesn't want him to be able to reach her. When Eames took the lead in the final scenes, Goren apparently already knew that Pagolis knew about the murder plot but did not inform Eames. I find it odd that he would not inform her. I suppose he felt either A) Eames had to learn the hard way or B) Eames would have ignored it. Goren's choice not to inform Eames of Pagolis' role in the murder plot seems unfair on the surface. Maybe he was teaching Eames a lesson or felt she would not be objective? After all, in "Blind Spot", Goren saw his own blind spot on his own, where Eames virtually had to be tricked (by Goren, of all people) into it. And it seems Eames never did realize she was not being objective about the case. I too miss the interrogations and the arias. Maybe it's still there, just more subtle? And I concur with the others as well, knock it off with the music montages. And Goren and Eames' drinking of Whiskey and Vodka while on duty struck me as very odd. In "Death Roe', Goren started to take a glass of wine but Eames chided him, reminded him they were "on duty". So now they are both drinking drinks, on duty, that are much stronger than wine? I'm not accusing either one of having an alcohol problem but, the inconsistency jumped out at me. Maybe they need Whiskey and Vodka to be able to tolerate each other lately. HA! And I don't get to pick on Ross for the first time this season. He actually didn't do anything annoying. He wasn't even rude to Eames when reminding her not to let her feelings cloud the Pagolis case, unlike his glee at taunting Goren about Gage being a killer. Well, Ross usually treats Eames better than Goren anyway. A bit random: My husband felt this episode was taking a few shots at Bill and Hillary Clinton. He even felt that the actress resembled Hillary. I don't agree with him though. I totally don't see it.
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Post by hannah on Feb 10, 2007 20:33:52 GMT -5
It looked like she was stressed after the phone call because of the way she sounded when she ordered her drink. So maybe the drinking on duty was just a special occasion. She just didnt want to belive her hero was the criminal. Especially when her husband was making her look bad and he was just not a good person. Yes she did find things out the hard way, but she did this smoother and cleaner than (more quiet) than Goren sometimes does.
I felt sad after it; she's guilty, but you feel like her husband should be punished. It reminded me of Magnificat (forgive me if someone already said this) because they have the 'bad guy' but the person you I hate the most walks because, by law, they didnt do any thing wrong: Depressed mother goes to jail. Emotionally abusive husband walks. A woman who could have made a large impact in politics goes to jail. Lying cheating husband walks.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 10, 2007 20:45:48 GMT -5
I don't relate those episodes together.
The husband in "Magnificat" actively sought to make his wife miserable by cutting her off from the world, and included ignoring knowing she was going to attempt suicide. I still think this husband should have went to prison, just as the mother should have. Both needed to take responsibility for their actions.
In "Albatross", the husband was a scumbag but he did not try to kill his wife or anyone else. I didn't think he deserved prison. The wife definitely did. Her husband may have been a jerk but that is no excuse for not acting when she knew full well someone was going to kill him. I don't feel sorry for the wife. Like the mother in Magnificat, she needed to take responsibility for herself. She should have just left him long ago.
She said "I froze", that she didn't know how to stop the duel without drawing suspicion on herself. She could have faked passing out or getting ill; that would have stopped the duel cold. But if it had been written that way, we wouldn't have this episode! LOL!
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Post by DonnaJo on Feb 11, 2007 11:12:22 GMT -5
I agree with you, Nicole, about this being a botched attempt to show Eames' weaknesses. It seems lately they are pushing this chip-on-the- shoulder, women's rights' agenda as part Of Eames' persona. I never viewed her as being THAT pro-women, like it's now a cause or something.
I liked how they revealed her problem with drunks last season in Vacancy. She was vulnerable & screwed up & learned from the mistake. Now it's almost like they are making her sour, dour & a bit "B***hy," if I may say that? It's not attractive, at least not to me. And I agree, her response to Goren's question was chilly, coming from her.
I've been to busy noticing Goren to really notice how unhappy Eames is. Maybe she's becoming more existental, too? Questioning her life's choices?
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Post by hannah on Feb 11, 2007 12:36:34 GMT -5
Really? You never noticed how pro women she is? I always got that vibe from her because of the abortion episode. I dont think its a big deal; we have seen her vulnerable very few times. We've seen Goren vulnerable a lot and it hits worse. To me, Eames can hide the angst.
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eames47
Silver Shield Investigator
"What are they saying now???"
Posts: 173
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Post by eames47 on Feb 11, 2007 17:07:18 GMT -5
Holly,
For what it's worth, I agree with you. And I never thought she came off as chilly or cold in the bar scene. When Goren asks her if they are all right, her response was "I hope so". Not, 'yeah, we're good' or something like that. I hope so. Which I thought was much more telling. She hopes they are ok, because this partnership is very important to her. And I got that from KE's portrayal. Her eyes told alot more in that scene, than the words she was given to say.
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Post by hannah on Feb 11, 2007 17:37:44 GMT -5
Yea, not chilly, just tipical Eames. idk, I guess people thought it was mean the way she said it, but I just didnT find it that way. Either way I hope they are okay too :] I still think it would be intresting if they talked more about it, but I'm still happy
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