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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 11, 2007 19:20:27 GMT -5
I didn't say why I thought Eames' response to Goren was chilly, did I? My bad.
To me, she seemed almost annoyed and exasperated by Goren's question. She didn't seem genuinely interested in letting Goren know things are ok. As long as they have been partners, she shouldn't have to wonder if things are ok. They had a minor disagreement, as they have had several times before in the past. I'm not sure why Goren felt the need to ask Eames for reassurance that she wasn't mad at him on this issue. Or why Eames felt the need to rebuff him. They don't appear as comfortable or as close to each as they had in prior seasons. It's almost as if their relationship is deteriorating without a clear reason, off screen.
Goren and Eames have disagreed several times before, dating as far back as Season 1 with "The Good Doctor". Other episodes of disagreement I recall are "Want" and "Pas De Deux". Why now is their disagreeing about an issue becoming a whole other issue? The issue seems to be with Eames and not with Goren.
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Post by hannah on Feb 11, 2007 20:01:01 GMT -5
I dont understand. I somtimes ask friends that I've been friends with for years "are we okay?" after an argument. I think the case it selve was bugging her, not Goren. Seems like your reading into it too much. But, I know what you mean by them not seeming as comfortable. I really miss that.
And I'm confused about you saying: "The issue seems to be with Eames and not with Goren." Huh? If your saying she's holding a gruge, I dont see that. And rebuff? The only time I saw that was in "The war at home" for just a while but she let it go in the next episode.
They have not seemed comfortable since "blind spot" so its not because of what happened at the "The War at Home." Well... if you dont count the part when she says somthing like "I'm supposed to keep an eye on you."
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 11, 2007 20:22:29 GMT -5
I get the sense that you think I'm attacking Eames and I'm not. There is a tension between them that I don't see how it developed or why and I'm trying to figure out what happened.
It wasn't the fact that Goren asked Eames if they were OK, it was the manner in which Goren asked her. It was a very tip-toe-ish and delicate approach. He was coy and sheepish when approaching her, which is a manner in which I have never seen them interact with each before. To me, that indicates a problem that Goren has sensed and Eames is not letting him on. I don't think it was just the case that was bothering her, I think something about Goren or something else that is bothering her as well. I don't think I'm reading to much into it. Given the sudden rift between them, I think it's natural to question what happened and why.
I'm not saying she's holding a grudge against Goren. But there is a clear rift between them and when Goren reached out to her, she blatantly rebuffed him. She is clearly shutting Goren out.
I'm not referring to "The War At Home" as being the cause of their tension between each other. It was there in "Blind Spot", even before she was kidnapped. In "The war At Home", I think she was out of line, just as Goren was. I don't think there was any reason for her to jump on him the way she did. If anyone should be shutting the other out, Goren should be shutting her out.
Maybe Eames is mad at Goren, maybe she's not. Maybe she's frustrated by home life or something issue within her family. Maybe this is the writers' way of showing how MCS is affecting her, just as that was shown in Goren's stupid behavior in "The War At Home". They are taking Goren down the "un-Stabler" path, I just hope they don't take Eames down that path too, though it seems that they are.
As I said, they have disagreed many times before. So why the sudden issue that they disagreed?
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Post by hannah on Feb 11, 2007 20:37:01 GMT -5
Why should Goren shut Eames out?? She really didnt do anything wrong. A little nosy, but she had good intentions. Either way, there is no reason why Goren should be shutting her out.
I saw no rebuff, but maybe there was one. I dont know any other way Goren could have asked that question and I certainly dont see Eames being all gitty about answering it. It was a question, it was answered and its over. Unless the subject comes back.
Well, anyway if the opportunity comes back, like a situation with his mother again, then Eames knows to lay off. I wonder if her laying off will come back at hurt Goren. Or maybe he'll go to her if he really needs it, instead of her coming to him. Hopefully there wont be another episode like "the war at home" for a while.
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Post by Techguy on Feb 11, 2007 21:46:21 GMT -5
There is a tension between them that I don't see how it developed or why and I'm trying to figure out what happened. It wasn't the fact that Goren asked Eames if they were OK, it was the manner in which Goren asked her. I have never seen them interact with each before. But there is a clear rift between them and when Goren reached out to her, she blatantly rebuffed him. She is clearly shutting Goren out. I'm not referring to "The War At Home" as being the cause of their tension between each other. It was there in "Blind Spot", even before she was kidnapped. I don't think there was a rift or any tension between Goren and Eames in "Blind Spot." I think that episode represents the closest and most in tune they've been this season. Right at the outset, when Ross reminds Eames that she is the senior partner, she confides to Goren that she's supposed to keep an eye on him, and he takes the news with good humor. And the scenes of Goren visiting Eames in the hospital, most especially the final shot, speak volumes about their partnership and friendship.
I think things between them started to go a bit awry in "Siren Call." Yes, Goren asks her if she's all right after her therapy session, but her response is a bit muted and guarded. Later on, Goren mentions (to someone else) about his mother's cancer, and Eames is surprised--she clearly wasn't aware of this information, and has to ask Goren if it's true. In the final scene as they drive away together, Eames asks Goren if he's OK and there is...silence. I get the sense that Goren has already begun shutting Eames out by his not disclosing his mother's situation to her.
I'm not clear on specific details of the interactions between Goren and Eames in the two episodes prior to "The War At Home." My recollection from "Masquerade" is the scene where Eames drops Goren off at Beth's house, and makes a snarky comment "Call me if you need a ride home."
But it's for sure in "The War At Home" that Goren's dam breaks and he and Eames reach a crossroads. One of my main complaints about this episode is there hasn't been sufficient developing backstory to explain Goren's strange behavior.
If "Albatross" was originally scheduled to air after TWAH and before "Privilege," I would have interpreted Goren's "Are we all right?" question as a carryover from the hard feelings of TWAH. But "Privilege" intervened with the suggestion that ruffled feathers have been soothed. The bar scene in "Albatross" is a bit out of place if it goes back to TWAH, or else is meant to refer to Goren and Eames' differences about their interpretations of the Pagolises. My take is it's the latter given the air date time frame of the episodes.
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Post by hannah on Feb 11, 2007 21:58:03 GMT -5
About the part in siren call, she asked him if he was okay and he was cold to her, but no one cares.
Anyway I think when she said "call me if you need a ride home," was just supposed to be a joke and not taken serously. Especially since Goren gave her a funny desperate face after she said that. Did anyone else notice that?
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Post by Patcat on Feb 12, 2007 10:08:01 GMT -5
We may be moving into a separate thread here.
If I could respectfully disagree with Techguy and some others--I do see plenty of reasons for the difficulties Goren and Eames are having. In the matter of a few months they both have had to deal with: the lost of their long time Captain whom they had learn to trust and respect on both a professional and personal level; Eames' kidnapping and torture at the hands of the daughter of Goren's mentor; that mentor's betrayal of Goren; and the probably terminal illness of Goren's mother. (I'd argue that anything that affects one of these partners affects another.)
I suspect Eames--because of both her actual toughness and need to appear tough--has not fully dealt with the kidnapping and torture. I suspect Goren feels guilty about his failure to prevent the kidnapping and the fact that his mentor's daughter was responsible. I suspect that guilt and his reluctance to add to Eames' emotional burdens, as well as his desire to keep his mother's problems away from his work, led him to not want to tell her about his mother's illness. All of these problems came to a head in THE WAR AT HOME, and Goren exploded. Eames was understandably hurt. They probably hashed out things a bit, but things are still understandably shaky between them.
That shakiness might have been behind Goren's "Are we ok?" in PRIVILEGE and Eames' response, but I think the circumstances of that particular case had more to do with that conversation. Goren knew that Eames admired Mrs. Pelogis (spelling?), and he also knew that the evidence was pointing at the woman's knowledge of something. I think Goren wanted Eames to know he was aware of her feelings but had to do his job. Eames' response could have been an acknowledgment of that. That scene was nicely written and acted in its ambivalence.
My two bits and then some,
Patcat
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Post by SarahIvy on Feb 12, 2007 14:13:48 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly agree, Patcat, and I think you laid it all out perfectly. There are myriad reasons for Goren and Eames to be stressed in their relationship, and I really think both actors have done a very good job at portraying that lingering sense that things are out of whack.
Essentially I think we're seeing the cracks that would appear in any relationship where both people aren't dealing fully or openly with their personal issues.
I definitely see Eames trying to put up a front of being "ok" after her kidnapping. As we've seen (due to being clubbed over the head with it lately), Eames is pretty sensitive when it comes to women in powerful positions/jobs, and I think she would be mortified if anyone perceived her as being weak, especially if they attributed that weakness to her gender.
I love the "Are we alright?" exchange largely because it is open to such varied interpretation. My personal read is that he was tentative, and purposely asked an open-ended question, allowing Eames to tell him if anything was wrong. Perhaps about the case, perhaps in a more general over-arching sense.
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Post by Patcat on Feb 12, 2007 15:00:21 GMT -5
And apologies to Techguy--a rereading of your post leads me to think we're not so far apart on our views of the Goren/Eames dynamic. I think are differences are in Goren's reactions to things this season. Please feel free to hit me over the head with a two by four if I'm wrong.
Patcat
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Post by Techguy on Feb 12, 2007 18:12:21 GMT -5
Patcat, I wouldn't give you or anyone else a cyber hit over the head with a two by four. I also think we agree on most of the details of the Goren/Eames dynamic. I feel all was well with them in "Blind Spot," but sometime after that Goren got the news about his mother's cancer and didn't confide in Eames. This lack of disclosure was revealed in "Siren Call."
I also think the re-arranging of the schedule for "Privilege" and "Albatross" has contributed to the debate over Goren's "Are we all right?" question. I prefer to think it's more about the Pagolises than any carryover of bad feelings from TWAH. Eames was pretty defensive about the investigation of her idol/role model Mrs. Pagolis, so the question and her "I hope so" response would be appropriate in this case.
I think the main area where I might differ with you and others is, while I understand the stresses Goren has been under, I still feel the revelations this season have been too over the top, and his responses out of character. I just don't understand, or accept, how someone who has been so in control in the past could act so unprofessionally in front of his Captain, his partner, and other detectives in TWAH. That's my personal take on it, and I admit it's biased and highly subjective. I also have a lot of other problems with TWAH which I believe has exacerbated my distaste for Goren's behavior.
But as someone upthread has mentioned, these other problems and issues are best left for another thread, perhaps in General CI Discussion.
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Post by hannah on Feb 12, 2007 19:28:26 GMT -5
I feel basically the same way; he should have been in control and I, personly, am a bit annoyed at all the excuses people are making for him, but you know, people make mistakes. The only problem is that he didnt really take any responsiblity for them. Unless you feel "are we okay," counts. Thats just how I feel.
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Post by DonnaJo on Feb 13, 2007 9:48:31 GMT -5
It concerns me that this slipshod (is that a word?) approach to continuity of scenes & dialogue shows a blatant disregard for those of us who diligently follow story & look for "intent" from the writer's.
Here we all are wondering exactly what Goren & Eames were referring to in the bar scene. We know this episode was shot & scheduled to run directly after TWAH. So, this scene was supposed to be a reconciliation of sorts for TWAH fight. But because this ep was delayed, now it doesn't jive with the time frame.
Guess no one thought anyone would notice. This is my take on things and you may disagree, of course. I don't think we true fans of the show are being given credit for "knowing things."
I'm waiting for Brother's Keeper to see if they will mention that Goldwyn is the older brother. Goldyn looks younger. Let's see if they ignore references made in past episodes or not.
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Post by musicwench on Feb 13, 2007 11:20:36 GMT -5
That's how I felt. It left me wondering if it was just one of those continuity problems or not.
Having read other posts on the subject, I figure it's more relevant if the episode actually did air in proper order. Besides the fallout from TWAH they are having a disagreement on this particular case so it could just be Goren's concern that Eames' might be harboring some resentment from TWAH issue and their current disagreement on top of that could be making him wonder what's going on with her.
I also agree with Techguy's assessment of the way the rift between started. Since Siren Call it seems things have become more tense. They've both had a very rough year so far.
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Post by hannah on Feb 13, 2007 11:46:59 GMT -5
Well, I need to re- watch the episode. Was Goren and Eames really fighting about the case? It seemed more to be Eames and Ross, but Goren...? "Are we okay," seems pretty serious and Eames;"i hope so," it just doesnt seem to be an answer that she would use about the case.
By the way, DonnaJo, slipshod is a word! Well, not sure if you really expected an answer but, I acutally asked my english teacher if I could use that word in an essay :]
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Feb 13, 2007 12:26:30 GMT -5
I'm confused about how you interpreted this. I thought she would have been great in office, but it was her husbands fault. He made her reputation look bad. It was'nt her who could'nt handle it- just him screwing it all up for her. And maybe she though a divorce would look bad for her? Or amybe she did love him. But, than why would she just let him die? Knowing both side of the coin made me realize she would have been awful in office! The scenes with people on street passing comments on how great she was; were beautiful and showed well how Mrs Pagolis presented herself in public in a dignified way; not showing the turmoil in her life and in her marriage. BUT her husband held her in complete control. He was showing up in restaurants with other women, insulting her, destroying her piece by piece. She felt she had to resort to taping him in order to "know" for sure if he was having affairs with these women. Even when she knew, she continued listening which led her to accessory to murder and the complete destruction of her career and what was left of her reputation. She was presented as the perfect abused woman which would have not annoyed me if not for the facts that : 1) she was also a woman running for a political spot and a big one; a field in which women are awfully absent. Letting then float the assumption that women and politics are not compatible because women are more prone to be abused and therefore shouldn't be trusted in such a field. and 2) because the writing team "had" to reinforce that notion by dropping here and there elements that undermined Eames' ability to lead a case and to be objective about it. Captain Ross "had" to remind Eames to let her personal feelings toward Mrs Pagolis aside and focus on the crime. Goren was the one who gently forced Eames to consider Mrs Pagolis as a possible suspect. As if Eames couldn't with her own experience and skills as a "senior" detective take charge of that case and figure out on her own who was involve and who was not. The bond she felt with Mrs Pagolis was too intense to be realistic as well as her disgust for M Pagolis.
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