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Post by trisha on Dec 1, 2004 15:26:39 GMT -5
I know next to nothing about D'Onofrio's personal life, so yes, I was referring to Goren's sad life. Sorry for the misunderstanding I agree that D'Onofrio is a great actor, but sometimes I think you give him a little too much credit. The Baryshnikov of acting is high praise indeed, but if you ask a ballet fan, they will tell you that there are other really wonderful dancers out there who could fill his shoes, would they not? Fame does not always equal talent, and I firmly believe that a lot of really fantastic artists go unknown throughout their entire careers because they never work on a project that catches popular attention. D'Onofrio was one of them even though he did work on popular projects. To suggest that there is just no one else who could portray a character such as Goren with all his nuances is pretty close minded, and coming from you, shocking.
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Post by KATIE on Dec 1, 2004 21:51:08 GMT -5
Thanks Trisha, now I see Mmm hed be ok too. I wasnt sure If "Gary Sinease" was guest or regular on that show. Pitty he would be my first, I like all the films and TV he has done. He seems an all round actor not out to prove a point. I do see what you mean with Vince though, and personally I think for Vince, CI has had Its run. I dont see that same passion he bought to the role In the first 2 seasons. Its probobly not his fault, If he has to stay as he Is contracted. If you dont like what your doing It always shows. Plus TV shows are always fresh and new and exciting, but when you go Into year after year and the show revolves around one character, Its a chalenge for the writer or writers. More characters easier to throw back and forth, dont get me wrong, I love Vincent I have everything he has done. But I am seeing somebody less Interested In what hes doing right now. He probobly will sort everything out once he Is free to do what he wants, It will be a new lease of life for the guy. I wish him well and good health In his life. I think everybody only wants him to be happy and healthy just my opinion, thanks for listening. love Katie PS thanks again for the caps Trisha.
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Post by romulanavatra3 on Dec 2, 2004 2:22:35 GMT -5
trisha i agree you that fame does not equal talent. in fact many actress and acotrs who are constaly in the public spotlight are little more than show pigens with little much in the way of any talent. i like the fact that criminal intent has chosen a cast that is either little known or does not euqate to avaragne sterotypical hollywood image that is so often seen these days. kathryn erbe for instance deifffres several of the classical hollywood sterotypes. she is not the sterotypical dumb blonde that is often seen and she knocks the sterotypical super atractictive aftical made up image of women that hollywood often presents these days on the head. plus she also knocks the old height rule on the head she may be verticaly challenged but that does not prevent her from acting, it infacts helps her beacuse she uses it to her advatange in the role. now back to vincent he is a good actor but i agree with observe in that vincent is irreapsiable in the fact that in order to replace him and the chracter of goren you would first have to wirte a totatly new character and may very well have to change the premise of the series as a whole. observe comparing vincent to Baryshnikov( that is taking a little far is it not obesrver, i mean the great Baryshnikov was a brilliant man and i would not quite compare vincent to him just yet myself)to is rather like comapring apples and oranges i mean they are/were both good at what they do/did but they you can not really say that there really is any comaparison between the two. anntoehr way of syaing this is it is like comapring chales dickens with joesph conrad( somewhat impossible given that had such different styles, methods and ideas that there is really no way to compare them apart from whether you like them or not but that is subjective to personal oppion and therefore not really all that acutre means of comparison). what i guess iam trying to say is that you can replace vincent but in order for it work you would not just have to replace him but you have to repalce the style and method and as a reuslt you would have to alter the whole pretence bheind criminal intent to suit who you chose to replace him. now in repsosne to your question who make good replacments for vicnets if he was to leave( for whatever reason). i would say john malkvoich ( brilliant actor would make a good chracter and could play well opisite eames/erbe). david suchet( annother brilliant actor would make for an intresting detective opposite eames/erbe). brent spinner after his last role on criminal intent is way to freaky( scary,scary,scary). al pacnio( another good actor who would make for a good torubled lead chracter who is hdding a dark sceret that could create some great conflict between himself and eames/erbe( not for real but in the storyline) ). patrick sterwart would make an intriguing lead, i mean he would make for a hoot with the right writiing and chracter devlopment( plus he would make for a somewhat striking oppiste to kathryns pettie eames). i think it wOuld be intresting if that brought back pbishop as possible replacement. it owuld be intresitng to see the reverse of the situaiton i season three and to how she would work with eames. reagrds rom.
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Post by Observer2 on Dec 2, 2004 6:29:02 GMT -5
Trisha,
Well, I’m sorry to shock you, and it may be close minded of me, but at this point it’s my experience of the situation.
I’m (clinically, diagnosed) hypervigilant to non-verbal affect, so I’m generally very aware of how unconscious/neurological levels of affect and reactions correlate (or don’t) with what the person is putting out consciously/verbally. Because of that I find relatively few actors convincing even at normal levels of intensity.
The more deep, intense, and/or complex the emotions, the fewer actors there are who can portray them convincingly. I think there are two reasons for that. One is that few people can imaginatively enter into a situation so fully that they react on a gut level as though it were real. The other is that many people, even when they can feel something deeply, have trouble opening up enough to express it fully. What I end up seeing is what shows through their baseline protective walls.
Most people have those kinds of walls, so it makes sense that most characters would have them, as well. But one of the things that makes D’Onofrio stand out, and makes his characters so engaging and affecting, is that he is capable of an extraordinary level of openness. He takes in the experiences of his characters, all the way down to the bone – and he takes us there with him.
I don’t think there are ballet dancers out there right now on the level of Nureyev or Baryshnikov, nor basketball players to match Michael Jordan. And if there are actors out there capable of convincingly portraying the range of psychological dynamics with the levels of understanding, depth, nuance and complexity of D’Onofrio, I haven’t seen them. If you’re aware of them, I’d love to know what to watch to see them – I would love to discover new (to me) actors of that quality.
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Post by romulanavatra3 on Dec 2, 2004 7:30:38 GMT -5
observer i agree with you that vincent is a great actor and wondeful in the role of goren but i will say that comapring him to Nureyev( who is one of the most brilliant amle ballet dancers ever is a little to much). i agree with that vincent has an abliity that is very rare with many actors of being able to portray emtions in a way that is real and bealviable like that would occur in real life and not just as if he was acting. on a slightly differnet tangent i would say that kathryn erbe is a very capable actress in her own right and holds her own well, she is not only belivable in the role of eames but she also draws you in a way that you rarely see. at first glance she seems to be a shadow of vincent but on closer examination you realize how much of impact she acutally has. for instances it is all those subtle and often barley noticable guestures and eye and facial movments she makes that tell a whole story without a single word being uttered. now if i had to choose a person to replace goren/vincent i would have to my first choices would either be john malkovich or david suchet the reason is say this is they both have a hell of a lot of talent and have the abillity to play roles in a way which is not only relistic but also belivable. reagrds rom.
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Post by Patcat on Dec 2, 2004 8:45:26 GMT -5
On the Universal board Techguy has posted a quiet, sane note observing that we're all getting pretty worked up over nothing. Other than knowing that Chris Noth is making a guest appearance, nothing official from Dick Wolf productions has been said about anything.
I can't imagine that if Mr. D'Onofrio leaves LOCI that the role of Goren will be recast. In all likelihood, an entirely different character would be brought in, which would certainly change the show. But it could be bad, could be good, certainly will be different.
Patcat
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Post by trisha on Dec 2, 2004 10:42:29 GMT -5
Patrick Stewart, Rom! I like him too, but I just can't see that one happening ;D
In all fairness, I never said I thought D'Onofrio would or should be replaced, and I certainly agree that casting someone else to play Goren is a ridiculous idea. A whole new character would have to take Goren's place, and that is why I started this thread.
It's all a game of what if, and the idea is offensive to some of the members here, I don't understand it, but I do apologize for it. I just thought it would be fun to see what types of characters and actors everyone else likes, and what direction they would take the show if D'Onofrio/Goren were to leave.
Although it is clear that Wolf and Balcer enjoy utilizing a Holmesian detective, I do not believe the premise of the show was ever to revolve around the character. It seems clear to me that the crimes, not the detectives, take the lead in the stories. That was especially so in the first season.
I do think that this show could lose it's "Sherlock" and survive, especially with the rest of the cast being increasingly utilized. The mothership has survived the loss of many fan favorites and defining characters and is still raking in millions of viewers each week. Sure, the show wouldn't be the same. No show is the same when a character departs, but that doesn't mean they're not as good or can't get even better. Case in point: Stargate SG-1, season 6.
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jaquetta
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 171
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Post by jaquetta on Dec 2, 2004 12:32:36 GMT -5
Oddly enough, a number of soap opera fans are extrememly upset by recasts of characters, or actors leaving roles fans like them in. People just get used to the status quo.
I think CI would survive VDO leaving, if they cast a strong enough replacement and the storylines remained good. Granted, I would probably go into mourning myself because I love my weekly (more or less) VDO fix so I hope this is firmly in the What If category, but it is kind of interesting to speculate.
Rom, ITA w/your assessment of Eames, or really, KE. She's very easy to overlook but she quietly does a great job.
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Post by Metella on Dec 2, 2004 19:00:11 GMT -5
Goren's replacement ..... I have no actor in mind .... but it can be done & I think actually easier than many here will admit.
First, they should not look for a "mini-Goren (read mini-me)" but for a slight readjustment ..... go for an introverted, skinny, geek-a-licious dude, maybe a young guy, maybe middle aged; an EXCELLENT profiler - he takes up as Eames parter in a definate junior position; gives Eames some air time being his guide for street stuff - he can then get into the real INTENT as was done in season ONE and wa LA -you have a new direction but still in keeping with CRIMINAL INTENT - still keeping all the cast who wants to stay.
I am also getting more than sick and tired of his tired sad-sack pathetic whine-filled lonely life. If he wants to take a spiral to hell - let him take it all by himself. Other shows and movie delve into that negative stuff enough, I prefer this show as it started out - strong and inteligent and all about nabbing a really smart criminal. I'm talking about Goren, Observer.
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Post by Enthralled on Dec 2, 2004 19:46:04 GMT -5
I agree Metella, I think Balcer absolutely took the wrong direction with the lonely Goren story line. I have no idea if this was D'Onofrio's call, but it adds nothing to the show (maybe that's why he is being "difficult to work with" he knows the storyline is on the road to nowhere. The method of revealing Goren's background has been fine, up to this year. It was entertaining to pick up little nuggets here and there. As to his replacement, I like the Gary Sinese idea, but he's taken. This is quite shallow, but the guy who plays the doctor on Lost (sorry, a guilty pleasure) is pretty hot - he might work well with Eames - who could then play more of a lead role If and I do say if, Vincent is fired or decides to leave, it will defintely be a challenge to find someone to replace him that could have the type of chemistry that Eames has with Goren - kind of the ying and yang of network tv - I would sorely miss it, they are a joy to watch (when Bobby isn't on antidepressents ;D ;D)
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Post by Metella on Dec 2, 2004 20:09:24 GMT -5
um, what about Samatha Buck ? HA HA HA HA
Oh I just kill myself. Just think of that! Zowie.
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Post by Observer2 on Dec 3, 2004 1:52:31 GMT -5
Trisha,
I don’t know whether you had me in mind, but I’m certainly not offended by the idea of this thread. I think if D’Onofrio decides to leave at some point, it would be possible to cast a new partner for Eames and continue to produce a solidly good series. I do think Balcer would be more limited in what he could do with psychological complexities, but I would still expect it to be a better series than anything else in the genre.
Metella,
I think your idea about how to restructure Criminal Intent if D’Onofrio decided to leave is one viable alternative, among several ways that might work.
On the other hand, I don’t understand your description of Goren as having a sad-sack pathetic whine-filled lonely life. I haven’t seen that at all. I’ve seen him coming up against the fact that he is lonely. But I haven’t seen him react to that in an overly emotional way, or let it keep him from doing his job. I especially have never seen any tendency in Goren to whine. That comment in particular was startling to me. I guess we just perceive him differently.
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Post by romulanavatra3 on Dec 3, 2004 2:47:58 GMT -5
alright trisha dont kill me but i sort put that one in for a bit of a laugh myself. but i will have to say he does make a very convincning scrouge. Patcat thanks for remminding i did make a point aobut in that in the oringal version of my earlier post which never got posted beacuse my computer decided to give me the shits( pardon the language). here is what iment to say but forgot at the time i re posted the message to add in. i think we sort of are going through the same sort of rumour mill pahse that occured with katrhyn erbe bettwenn the end of season 2 and the begging of season 3. i mean some of the stories that came out then were you know sort of amazing to say the least and fortunatley the great bulk were just rumours. so i will have to say at the mommnet in reagrds to vincent unless we get any either offical or close to offical( i mean very realiable inside infomation), we should worry to greatly about any cast changes for the moment. not t o say that this idea is not intresting beacuse it is intresting to see who could be cast as arepolcament and how they might affect the series( sotry wise that is). regards rom.
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Post by BegToDiffer on Dec 3, 2004 11:03:24 GMT -5
Trisha, when I first saw this post, I thought, now there's a can of worms! But it has brought some interesting discussion, so as much as I hate the idea, thanks for bringing it up. I'm in the group that believes "Goren" himself could not be done by anyone else, so if I was looking for a new detective, I have always liked Tommy Lee Jones. I also like the acting ability of Denzel Washington.
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Dec 3, 2004 12:51:15 GMT -5
Oh I had to laugh when I read the reference to "mini-Goren" (Mini-Me). Sorry, I just got a really weird-hilarious image at that! ;D Anyway, I don't want to speculate on who would be a good replacment for Goren. They'd have to create a whole different new character, and I'd have to see him work with Eames before I could make a judgment either way. But I do agree that there seems to be a LOT of flippin'-out over something we don't even know for sure is going to happen (refering VDO's early replacement). We'll just have to wait and see after season 5. I find Goren facinating to watch, and I will miss him when he's gone. But for now, I will enjoy Logan's guest appearance, and enjoy CI for as long as VDO wants to keep Goren going. And to my knowledge, I don't think I've ever seen Goren be whiney, or pathetic. I don't see Balcer going too far into the "loneliness" angle. That would depart too far from the CI formula. Although, we do get to see the emotional sides and into the personal lives of Benson and Stabler on SVU. So who knows!?
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