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Post by trisha on Dec 3, 2004 13:55:10 GMT -5
Observer, I'm sorry, I need to proofread better. I meant to write if anyone is offended, I don't understand it, but I apologize for any offense I may have caused I think that where Metella and I differ on this issue from you is that, while we understand why Goren feels what he feels and thinks what he thinks, we don't always want to see it, and we certainly don't want the amount of focus to be put on it that we have seen lately. It has become clear, as you yourself noted, that the writers are on a lonely theme for Goren. It didn't just smack you in the face, it smacked us all -- again, and again. I understand that many fans of the show enjoy the focus on Goren's personal, but there are also many who don't. I believe, and I think Metella will agree with me, that when the show began, the writers used Goren's personal history as a tool for him to catch the criminal -- which was fine, cool even. But for this season, and last season, it seems that his past is being used to develop the crimes ... sort of like the writers have decided to use the criminals to explore Goren, instead of the other way around. We didn't tune in for that. We wanted the cop to explore the crime and the criminal. I could have sworn that was the original intent of the show, too. Picking up the little details about how Goren is able to do this so well was fun, and I don't mind hearing them still, it's just the focus on the negative aspects of his life that is turning me off. So, sure, loneliness is natural, but do we have to keep seeing it? Isn't one mention enough? Do we need to be constantly beaten over the head with what a tragic life the guy has? I mean, good God! I don't watch NYPD Blue for a reason, and that's it!
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js
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 143
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Post by js on Dec 3, 2004 14:45:02 GMT -5
This is the first item I've seen that actually state Chris Noth will replace VDO in the show. I have no idea how reliable the publication is. Not good news!! www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~78~2570806,00.html js
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Post by trisha on Dec 3, 2004 14:50:34 GMT -5
It reads like another tabloid to me.
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js
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 143
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Post by js on Dec 3, 2004 14:51:41 GMT -5
The Denver Post should be a reliable source, which I also should have noted. I just don't know about the rest of the source. And, I should have thought to say that it certainly isn't an official announcement from NBC or Wolf.
js
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Post by trisha on Dec 3, 2004 15:00:50 GMT -5
You could say that about the NY Post, too. Should be, and is are not always the same. Since the rest of the page appears to be nothing more than rumors and gossip, I would give this publication no more credence than I would Page 6.
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js
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 143
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Post by js on Dec 3, 2004 15:24:41 GMT -5
That's what I intend to do until something official comes out. Is the Denver Post on a par with the NY Post and not with a paper such as New York Times?
js
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Post by trisha on Dec 3, 2004 15:38:52 GMT -5
I have no idea. It's possible that it's a reliable source for some things, like the NY Post has been in the past. But, imo, anything that is printed along with other gossipy things should not be given much credit, no matter who the source is.
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js
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 143
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Post by js on Dec 3, 2004 16:16:35 GMT -5
I guess I shouldn't have been so quick to post the link, Trisha. I should have thought more about it. I've always understood that one can't believe everything that is read. I got "overwrought" when I read it. And you certainly have made excellent points here. js
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Post by janetcatbird on Dec 3, 2004 17:20:22 GMT -5
Well, Observer, the last time I made a comment about D'Onofrio as a performer we had an interesting conversation, remember that! Suffice to say that while he is very talented, I don't believe him the be-all-and-end-all. Would I miss him from the show, yes. Do I think it could be done quite well without him--as long as Balcer and the writers make a true effort, yes. Focus on the criminal, you can still have psychological understanding without a virtual mind-meld.
Should D'Onofrio decide to leave, I also think it very important that they not have his replacement a wanna-be, knock-off Goren. You'd have to make him/her a Profiler, maybe a bit more conventional than Goren but still good. (I say "her" and think it a cool possibility, but for the sake of getting in a guy's head, talking to suspects, or taking out a macho he-man I think a guy would be more likely.) Good psych background, give us a good reason to not consult Skoda/Olivet that often. Does he/she have a personal life, yes, but preferably a stable, reasonably contented one as a bit of a foil.
As most of the actors I like are either dead or British, my suggestions are going to be a bit hit or miss.
Sad to say the only thing I've seen Corin Nemec in is "Operation Dumbo Drop"! Long story. Yes he does have good comedic timing, but just how much of an issue would that be in this show? Anyways, I would love to see him do something else.
Raymond Cruz. The biggest role I've seen him in was Chavez in "Clear and Present Danger", and I did catch him on an episode of "The X-Files". As a Hispanic it seems like he's been typed as either a gang member or a soldier, so I think it'd be cool to see him do something else. What little I've seen, I liked. I also thought it'd be neatl if he had an appearance as Terry, or one of Eames other dates. Not to follow Eames home from work, I don't want soap, but if he had a role like social worker or lawyer where he'd interact with the MCS detectives...could be interesting.
I was quite taken with Neil Patrick Harris in "Want". They may wait a while before bringing him in, but a possibility, huh? I mean, if they had Jerry Orbach and S. Epatha Merkerson in bit spots during the early years before they became regulars, why not him? He's definitely got the talent, but since he seems busy with theatre and stuff I don't know if he'd be up for a regular TV grind.
What about Avery Brooks? I know him best as Hawk, but "Deep Space 9" fans seemed to like him. Can you imagine him and Courtney B. Vance doing scenes together? Whoa! As Catbird is a sucker for a voice, you'd have to mop up the puddle witht hose two together, but selfish indulgence aside Brooks is a great actor.
As to the Brits, I think Julian Firth might prove good (Brother Jerome in Cadfael). Same with Mark Charnock (Brother Oswin, same series). Course you'd have to 1) get the actor across the pond and 2) explain the character's reason for being in New York, so I doubt that would happen. Maybe they would be the better bets for Terry, I dunno. Of course I'm gonna get yelled at for turning mushy, but if we can see Irene briefly I don't see why we can't get a quick view of Eames' friends.
Actors who I've seen very little of, but just on an off-chance: Patrick Warburton, David Hyde Pierce (has anyone seen straight drama from him?), Ray Liotta (someone I like), and Timothy Hutton (after being analyzed in "Ordinary People", wouldn't it be cool to see him on the other end? Besides, he was great as Archie in "Nero Wolfe").
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Post by Observer2 on Dec 3, 2004 19:06:50 GMT -5
JS,
Don’t let the Denver Post get you worried. Here’s a back-tracking of the story – or rather, the media’s ugly little game of ‘telephone.’<br> The Denver Post cited TV Guide Online (tvguide.com) as their source. However, the Denver Post stated it as a fact, even though their source didn’t.
TV Guide said “rumors are flying” and then cited Broadcasting & Cable magazine as saying that Dick Wolf “is considering” Noth. For the Denver Post to turn “rumors” and “considering” into a stated fact of replacement is inexcusable, even assuming they considered TV Guide a reliable source.
TV Guide’s source -- Broadcasting & Cable Magazine -- cited vague “industry sources” as saying that “NBC Universal executives” were “considering Noth as an emergency backup.” For TV Guide to turn “NBC Universal executives” into “Dick Wolf” is either inexcusably irresponsible ‘journalism,’ or else inexcusably stupid. If TV Guide doesn’t know the difference between a network exec and a producer, something is very wrong.
Broadcasting & Cable Magazine then listed alleged reasons for the replacement that was supposedly being considered. Guess what their source was for those reasons... That same old ridiculous story by Page 6, about the fistfights that no one ever thought to mention until D’Onofrio ended up in the hospital.
The only source cited other than Page 6 was B&C’s vague, un-confirmable “industry sources” – not even NBC insiders, just “industry sources.” So the only thing in this whole dust-up that might have some basis in truth (though the probability that it does is pretty low) is the “industry sources” rumor that “NBC Universal executives” were “considering Noth as an emergency backup.” Not Dick Wolf. Not a definite replacement. Just a vague rumor about NBC execs from un-named industry sources. And no even vaguely reliable source for any possible reason why they would.
As far as I’m concerned, the most interesting fact to come out of this whole situation is that (according to the usually reliable Variety) D’Onofrio said he’s staying as long as Dick Wolf wants him to. And we haven’t heard any source at all that gave any hint that Dick Wolf doesn’t want him to stay. (TV Guide mysteriously turning “NBC Universal executives” into “Dick Wolf” certainly doesn’t count.)
Janetcatbird,
I basically agree with your sense of the kind of character to bring in, if D’Onofrio decides to leave the series.
I’m bad with names, but I have some memory of the major characters in "Clear and Present Danger." Can you describe for me which one Raymond Cruz was?
Avery Brooks. Hawk. Oh, my, yes... Did you see the episode with the two Dobermans attacking? He took off his shades and gave them a look (he was already in the proper stance, of course). I’ve been a professional dog trainer, and I’ve broken up serious dog fights by wading in using only a combination of body language, voice and eye contact (never, never reach a hand down into a dog fight). As far as I’m concerned, that was a completely believable scene. And he didn’t even have to use his voice – they were already looking at him. He just told them, with body language and expression, “I am more dominant than you can even imagine. Don’t give me a reason to prove it.”
And how totally different was Benjamin Sisko? Did you watch Deep Space 9? He was almost unrecognizable.
And his voice. Oh, yeah. Like you, I really react to voices. (I’ve been known to rank Mr. Wonderful ridiculously high among my favorite D’Onofrio movies, just because of the singing...)
As an actor, Brooks would be perfect for an intense, brilliant profiler, distinctive enough in his own way to be totally different from Goren. And he definitely has some capacity for psychological depth. Damn. If D’Onofrio decided to leave, Brooks would be *very* high on my shortlist of favorite possibilities to replace Goren. But I doubt it would ever happen. Series television has not come that far yet. Nor have network execs. Even if Balcer strengthened Erbe’s role enough to have Eames be a functionally equal partner, in the eyes of male execs I don’t think a woman is going to be seen as a strong enough character to be full partner to a man. And I don’t think they’re going to buy a crime drama intended for general audiences where what they consider the main lead is an African-American man, with a Euro-American woman as his ‘side-kick.’
*Note to the production team: If you want an actor to play an intense, charismatic, seriously deadly criminal... or a domineering, arrogant FBI liaison... or... well, he can play low-key, but why waste him on that... anything requiring unusual intensity and flat-out power of personality... don’t overlook Avery Brooks as a possibility.
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js
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 143
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Post by js on Dec 3, 2004 19:20:33 GMT -5
Observer,
Thanks for taking the time to track all that information for us. It is so logical, and it should put some of the worrying to rest. You are so right, we have not one fact in all of that except the quote from VDO himself saying he'll stay as long as Wolf wants him. Let's hope he'll stay as long as his fans want him. Also, the fellow from T.V. Guide (Matt Rouch??) is known not to like VDO, so ...
Thanks again. js
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Post by Observer2 on Dec 3, 2004 19:58:23 GMT -5
Hope it helps put things in perspective, JS. I just wanted to add to the section of my post about what NBC execs will and will not accept, that I appreciate the degree of diversity we do see. Law & Order, the original, for example, gives us a lead team of detectives that has included an African-American detective for years. And their CO is an African-American woman. If her well-deserved promotion has been slow in coming, well, that may be a bit of social commentary on the part of the producers, since it accurately reflects a situation well-known to minorities and women. In any case, I wouldn’t assume it was done at the request of the network. And, although I doubt a single decision-maker from that era remains with the network, I remember well that NBC was the first network to cast an African-American as a lead (one of two equal partners) in a dramatic series. I Spy broke ground not only in that way, but also in portraying other countries, ethnic groups and cultures in positive ways, emphasizing the underlying commonalties of people throughout the world. I hope that series is still remembered at the network as a source of pride and inspiration.
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Post by romulanavatra3 on Dec 3, 2004 20:59:13 GMT -5
js what i find most intresting aobut the denverpost article you post is that thing about chris noth is included almost as an after thought, i mean the section is about three lines with no detail so i am thinking that means that it was porabbly taken form a sopurce that is porabbly either inacurate or lacks enough infomation to make it compeletly creadiable. by the way if it is was an acurate source i would expect a little more deatail and infomation, but the thing is there was virutaly no at all( which has peaked my intrest somewhat). though i agree that a creadible paper does not always use the most creadiable sources to back up there infomation or arcticles. i totaly agree with observers comments aobut vincents last interview and the fact we have not heard that dick wolf wants vincent to leave( i eman it would preatty quickly become knowledge if vincent had been asked to leave and i doubt that dick wolf would really waste the effort trying to defend him if he had been asked to leave). reagrds all rom.
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Post by janetcatbird on Dec 3, 2004 21:32:08 GMT -5
Observer, 4th grade, I get home from school and Mom and I would watch reruns of "Spencer: For Hire". It's been a while, but I have a definite sense of Hawk as the character. Did not see the episode with the Dobermans, but it sounds like something you'd expect from him! I liked Robert Urich in that as well--small world how Carolyn McCormick, Dr. Olivet, played Rita. She wasn't Susan, but still a neat link. Actually i've had minor daydreams of Avery Brooks having a guest spot as Carver's brother or cousin or something, possibly a preacher whose congregation is involved in one of the crimes. Can you not imagine him in a pulpit?
I have only seen a handful of DS9 episodes, a long time ago. But you still got this sense of dignity and authority. What little I remember, a neat character. I just want to see Avery Brooks in more stuff. <Long digression: My personal favorite Deep Space episode was "Trials and Tribbleations", when they spliced footage with the Original series episode "Trouble with Tribbles". Oh, that was good! Not only did they get Worf on the evolution of the Klingon forehead ("It is a long story--and we do NOT discuss it with outsiders!") But also the ultimate expression of lady Trekkies. Female "Oh my...that voice, that stance, those eyes..." Sisko: "Kirk was known as quite the ladies' man." Female: "Oh not him--Spock!" Sisko (all but dragging her away): "Let's go.">
While I understand the jitters that come with a black male/white woman partnership, I also think L&O is gutsy enough--and Dick Wolf has enough clout--that if they decided to cast a black male, they would. Besides, knowing their no-soap stance makes a romance highly unlikely between two professional cop partners (although I'd love to see the undercover play!). Didn't Belzer and the black lady with the curly hair/deep voice work together a bit on SVU (Sorry I forget the name)? So a mixed partnership ahs been done, albeit briefly. But having been in classes that discussed race issues, I know that there are nasty issues that linger with some sick creeps. Well, move on! Wasn't Jesse L. Martin's big thing before L&O that he was Ally McBeal's boyfriend? And Charlie/Zoe on "West Wing". I think TV is at the point where they can do this--if you have to use it for a story issue, fine, but move beyond and don't make it the overwhelming influence.
OK, In "Clear and Present Danger" Chavez was the sniper who was on the special forces team. You saw him near the beginning, during the training operation where he basically humiliates the other team. ("He ate lunch here, sir. Quarter pounder, with cheese.") When Harrison Ford and Willem Dafoe--who is also an intriguing actor--went to rescue Benjamin Bratt and the other guy, they first picked up Chavez in the jungle and he went in with them.
In the Clancy novels Ding Chavez is a cool character and of course you get much more of the back story. Eventually he and Clark (Dafoe's character) become a team doing work for the CIA, and head up a special counter-terrorist unit Rainbow Six, after Ding winds up marrying Clark's younger daughter. Now when my family watches the movie and Chavez asks Clark "Who are you, sir?" someone in my family will yell out "Your future father-in-law! Be afraid, be very afraid!"
I think there are a few X-files fans. I can't remember the episode, but Raymond Cruz played a migrant worker who somehow got zapped so whatever he touched would develop an incredibly nasty, lethal fungal infestation in a matter of minutes. (The corpses were pretty gross.) There was a subplot that he and his brother had been fighting over a girl, Maria.
Other actor possibility: Miguel Sandoval. He played the drug lord Escobedo in "Clear and Present Danger", the one in Colombia who everyone was going after. He showed up in the mothership playing a math professor who they thought had impregnated/killed a student but he was eventually cleared. Course, I may just be biased because I can easily imagine those Hispanic actors in "Power and the Glory"--Sandoval as the Whiskey Priest, Cruz as the Lieutenant-- and I may be projecting my own fantasies/desires to see them do more, but whatever.#nosmileys
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Post by NicoleMarie on Dec 4, 2004 0:31:55 GMT -5
I think that where Metella and I differ on this issue from you is that, while we understand why Goren feels what he feels and thinks what he thinks, we don't always want to see it, and we certainly don't want the amount of focus to be put on it that we have seen lately. It has become clear, as you yourself noted, that the writers are on a lonely theme for Goren. It didn't just smack you in the face, it smacked us all -- again, and again. I understand that many fans of the show enjoy the focus on Goren's personal, but there are also many who don't. I believe, and I think Metella will agree with me, that when the show began, the writers used Goren's personal history as a tool for him to catch the criminal -- which was fine, cool even. But for this season, and last season, it seems that his past is being used to develop the crimes ... sort of like the writers have decided to use the criminals to explore Goren, instead of the other way around. We didn't tune in for that. We wanted the cop to explore the crime and the criminal. I could have sworn that was the original intent of the show, too. Picking up the little details about how Goren is able to do this so well was fun, and I don't mind hearing them still, it's just the focus on the negative aspects of his life that is turning me off. So, sure, loneliness is natural, but do we have to keep seeing it? Isn't one mention enough? Do we need to be constantly beaten over the head with what a tragic life the guy has? I mean, good God! I don't watch NYPD Blue for a reason, and that's it! Hello Trisha. This is perfect thoughts for my take on the show this season. I stole your words and posted them on another board! I hope you don't mind. Cos you said it better than I could have! hehehe
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