Who Would You Pick to Replace D'Onofrio?

[Observer2]

Janetcatbird,

I didn’t see much of the Spencer: For Hire series, but my sister showed me one episode with Hawk in it, so when the Hawk series came out I tried it and got hooked immediately. The episode with the Dobermans was in the Hawk series.

Brooks as a preacher... yeah. I can imagine it! That voice... oh, yeah. Have you seen/heard The Preacher’s Wife with Courtney B. Vance as the Preacher? In one of his sermons he comes so close to singing... it makes me long to see him in a musical.

Your description of Trials and Tribleations gave me a couple of good laughs. Thanks! I could just hear Worf... and that bit that gave voice to the fan response to Spock was great!

As for the resistance I would expect to the idea of teaming a black man with a white woman, it’s not that I would expect them to worry so much about a potential romantic relationship between them. It’s more that, in the minds of most men in the dominant culture, if you team a man and a woman together as partners, the man is obviously the lead role, and the woman is a supporting role. So if they put together a team of cops where the man was African-American and the woman was Euro-American, I suspect that in the minds of most network execs that would mean they were putting out a show with a black lead and a white supporting role. That would be reinforced by the fact that Eames was originally designed as a supporting role. I don’t think the networks are ready to put out a detective series targeted for a general audience that has, in their view, a black lead with a white supporting character. And I don’t think they’re ready to see a male-female partnership in which the woman is fully equal with the man.

I could be wrong. I’d love for them to prove me wrong – on some other series (unless D’Onofrio decides to leave). But I’m not gonna hold my breath.

Please note that I’m talking about the network execs, not Balcer. Wolf I don’t know much about, though his shows tend towards pretty good racial/ethnic diversity. But I’m not sure he really believes in a strong, competent female ADA.

Balcer, on the other hand, even in what was clearly designed to be a supporting role, gave Erbe a strong, competent character to portray. He helped to balance Eames with Goren by making her apparently the partner with seniority, and giving her at least one area in which she excels beyond him, i.e., computers. If D’Onofrio decided to leave I could imagine Balcer being willing to hire Brooks. I just can’t imagine the network accepting it.

[LOCIfan]

Interesting topic, trisha. sorry i've arrived so late to the game! I fall into the camp that believes the series could thrive (might not, but Could) even in D'Onofrio's absence. Yes, I tune in to see Vincent's Goren and all that, but before CI, I had no conscious knowledge of who Vincent D'Onofrio was or that he was a terrific actor. And with the right bit of casting, a new lead detective with keen profiling skills could probably win me over.

I'd tune in to watch Gary Oldman or Liev Schreiber or Chris Cooper in the role. All riveting actors capable of portraying psychological depth and nuance.

As for the issue of this season being too focussed on Goren's psychology, I don't really see it that way. Goren's character has not seemed to be depressed or lonely or whiny at all to me. There have been a few ambiguous lines here and there, but they are open to interpretation and don't seem to inhibit Goren's ability to crack the case each week. He has been just perceptive and apt at getting into the criminals' minds as ever. This was particularly true in The Posthumous Collection, Want, Eosphoros, Magnificat, In the Dark, Silver Lining and even Semi-Detached (I see that episode more about forming inappropriate attachments to others than being about loneliness. Either way, Goren definitely used his skills to get into Nelda's head).

We still never go home with Goren. We still learn what motivates the criminal and watch as Goren figures out where the chink in the armor is and how to exploit it to bring the bad guy down. Goren does not moan about his past traumas or current personal frustrations, and other characters don't talk about him. The shows are about the crimes and how Goren catches the criminals.

Is it really just the sporadic, ambiguous lines of dialogue that irritate people? I mean, Eames' last line in Inert Dwarf about how her mother always said she should be glad she wasn't a lonely genius (paraphrasing) can simply be taken at face value -- i.e. that she's commenting only on Manotti and not on Goren at all. Also, Goren doesn't respond. He could be thinking -- "your mom was wrong. I'm a genius and I'm far from lonely..." Lines like these are open to interpretation. For all we know, Goren could have a tumultuous relationship with a live-in girlfriend, who's also a workaholic.

Am I missing the mopiness other people see in Goren this season?

[chief]

David Caruso, formerly of NYPD Blue and currently in CSI, Miami. Not that he would leave the wildly popular (for others, not myself) CSI series. In my opinion in Blue Caruso played the perfect example of an NYPD detective. I often wonder if he is sorry he left after only one (?) year notwithstanding his current success. I still enjoy watching the replays of the first episodes of Blue with him. The time he filled the mobster's car with cement? Classic! Aside from that, the character's concern for the victims and his colleagues made him very likeable.

[Sirenna]

LOCIfan: You've brought cool logic back into the picture

I like Trisha's topic. I don't see any impropriety in mulling over replacement actors. The show is, apparently done a year from now, or at least Vincent may be done with it. That doesn't mean the option to renew what has been a very successful show should go with him.

I agree with most of locifan's list. But I still think Goren's approach throughout Semi, Want, PC was, not mopy exactly, but, um, needy without explaining why. For me, it didn't work.

I have a sense of doom when this show veers, even slightly, in becoming similar to NYPD, csimiami, etc - the slippery slope thing. But, I guess I should trust the team behind it. Still as we talk about other actors as the lead suddenly race becomes a factor in who might pair with Eames, romantic attachement possibilities raise their repetitive head. These are all formulaic considerations which, so far CI has managed to rise above. They don't hire black or female actors to give them a break. I like to think, niaive though it may be, that they hire them because they are good actors who happen to be...whatever. If true, this approach would, itself, be avant-garde.

chief: David Caruso! Yikes. I thought he was pretty awful in those two shows for just the reason you gave in his support. I expect him to cry for the season finale.

[janetcatbird]

Oh sigh. Just got back from a choral rehearsal, which has not put me in a good mood. Our director is a bit too flighty, always dithering about and changing her mind, and we have quite a few young know-it-alls (who really DON'T) who are so busy yapping and buttering themselves up that they're oblivious and make stupid mistakes, like, how to sit down! It's much worse when we consider how good we were last year, contrasted to this bit of humiliation, and we're stuck doing cheesy cornball crap that took away from much-needed rehearsal on much nicer pieces! ARGH!!!! Sorry, with the concert tomorrow and end of the semester hair-pullings I'm just a bit frazzled right now. Venting done.

Sirenna, if you notice our discussions weren't "Oh they should get some cute minority", rather we were discussing various actors we liked or disliked, and then musing on what issues might come up should they be cast. Admittedly, as a white person I've never been through a minority's experience, but from what I've seen/heard L&O has done a very nice job of acknowledging the issues without being over-ridden.

As to personal lives, y'alll know I'm the sentimenatlist who was screaming to see the baby last year. What I like about cameos and brief appearances are that they allow us to see that the main characters are humans with outside lives. I probably would not want one of Eames' dates to be a recurring character as the giggles and perks of "Oh, THAT'S so-and-so!" would get old and detract from the stories. Like I said, brief cameos. Hey, I may be a sap, but I also appreciate the good things when I have them, I don't want them messed up. Just interesting possibilities that I personally would like to see, though I certainly understand the writers being cautious.

Observer, as "A Man Called Hawk" isn't shown in reruns I haven't seen any of those. Remember, you're talking to youngun who would have been too little to watch the initial airings. My Spenser memories aren't that solid on specific episodes, I just remember the characters and the impressions I felt. To this day someone in my family will make a deep rumble of their voice and say "Ah, Aha!" a la Hawk and the rest of us get a kick out of it. My mom remembers specific episodes--mainly the one where Spenser's girlfriend was getting harassed by one of her professors. Hawk refused to let Spenser go himself, cause he knew Spenser would lose control and get in trouble. So Hawk, who always had a good relationship with Susan, went to have a lit-tle chat with the guy (which would put the fear of God into just about anybody)!

[Sirenna]

I see what you are saying.

My point is that I think, though I may be niaive in so thinking, LO:CI doesn't concern themselves what issues might come up if they hire a certain 'cute minority' or not, even though viewers (not you, not observer )might. They hire actors, at least supporting actors, based on talent and the thinking that anyone can be an M.E or a ADA and just because the leads are opposite genders they don't necessarily have to 'fall in bed/love/lust.

Regular thinking seems to worry about, and try to minimize the fallout concering issues of gender race and politics, i.e "we'll hire Denzel but eliminate the kissing scene depicted in the book and no romantic attachments between the leads because some viewers may not like that. i.e Pelican Brief. ) LO:ci, although I don't really know why I'm sure about this would NOT raise these things as issues for why an actor wouldn'tbe hired, even though the audience might object.

Although even LO:ci seems to hire overweight actresses and give them cats when they want to portray lonely lovelorn people which is a bit stereotypical.

Don't worry, you'll be great at the concert tomorrow. Good luck!

[Metella]

Observer, I'm a bit offended that you can't let me have my opinion of how a scene reads out to ME, how I can't want MY GOREN to be a certain way. I let you have your hyper-vigilent Goren that matches well with your make up and I don't rip your opinion down and say why do you have to have it this way? I do debate it, once & only on topic & then leave you to it.

Now I shall whine ....Observer, why are you so quick to defend some you see as not fitting in for a "handicapped" reason .... like that other poster on the other board .... so quick to step into their shoes and say; well, they see things, process things differently - however, because I call on no disablility or distinct trama in my background, you give me no room to interpret the world in a different manner. Just my whine - and I DO think a grown man who is in Goren's positon with all his strengths is whining when he sad sacks about, not in words, but in actions.

ROM: was that phrase show pidgeons? I've never heard of that, is it an aussie phrase or did you make that up? It was great, cracked me right up. You are really on a roll on this topic. Conrad vs Dickens ! wow what a choice.

[Metella]

Avery Brooks ! oh yeah, now that is a great suggestion. It is about time for him to get back into a new role anyway.

Spenser for Hire was the best of the PI shows, Robert U and Avery B made such a cool team to watch and listen to.

Trisha, yeah that was more or less my thinking. I'll take it. Especially the bit about using the criminals to express Goren now rather than the other way around. That is exactly what I am seeing. And while the rosy look that Observer has when she looks at Mr. D'Onofrio's working talent, I also can't be topped by many as a fan of the actor. However if it continues like this (the season) I will be glad when the end of next rolls around and CI ends or we get a new life on the Criminal's Intent.

[js]

I always liked Spenser For Hire, and Robert Urich was the first actor I ever really "fell for," if you will. I also liked Avery Brooks very much. Haven't heard of him lately, so I wasn't aware he was still in the profession. Maybe I just haven't been observant.

js

[NikkiGreen]

Hawk and Spencer...cooler than

Avery Brooks is the host of Ancient Evidence. It's shown in my area by the Discovery Civilization Canada channel.

[LOCIfan]

How about Andre Braugher (sp?) as a Goren replacement?

Metella -- approaching carefully and with respect here -- I have no problem with different viewers taking different interpretations away from a show. In fact, I see that as the hallmark of a well-written series. My question has to do with the whiney issue -- how has Goren been a whiney sad-sack this season? I'll give you Semi-Detached, but otherwise I haven't seen him behaving in a sad-sack manner. Not even in Great Barrier, where he could've. In Want, he fought for the legal rights of the bad guy, but he didn't strike me as whiney about it. And in other episodes, he seems his same old Goren self in terms of how he related to the suspects. In fact, if Inert Dwarf hadn't had that last Eames line, would we be talking about sad-sack Goren? He didn't seem like a sad-sack in that episode...

Bear in mind that I don't mind what people here call "soap" -- in fact, I watch shows like NYPD Blue for just that reason. Soap isn't what I like about LOCI, though, and it's not why I watch (I watch for the stories). Anyway, maybe my natural affinity for soap has blinded me to what others are having problems with this season. But I also wonder if interpretations given by people on boards like this one concerning one or two episodes haven't skewed perceptions.

Observer2: Hypervigilance to non-verbal affect isn't uncommon. Children of alcoholics, the mentally ill, parents who fight a lot, people suffering from PTSD, etc... are commonly found to be hypervigilant to non-verbal affect (which isn't a diagnosis/disorder per se, but a symptom common to several diagnoses/disorders). As a hypervigilant individual, I can see how an exceptionally good actor would appeal to you, but it's hard to believe that D'Onofrio is the only actor around who works on multi-levels for you. (And this is coming from another individual who's also been clinically found hypervigiliant to non-verbal affect.) I think subjective, personal likes and dislikes -- irrespective of hypervigilance -- come into play here.

Sirenna -- Hey now, ok, April in Eosphoros was overweight. But, she didn't have cats!! Also, the actress who portrayed her was terrific AND fit with the fact that the real-life granddaughter in the Murray-O'Hare case was obese...

Ok, now I'll duck...

[Sirenna]

I think Robert Urich is ill at the moment. I think it's something serious to do with his heart.
He was all set to do a reality tv show about his life now a la jessica simpson but cancelled when his illness kicked in. He said he needed his privacy.

[js]

Robert Urich died on April 16, 2002. He had cancer. He was away from his work while he took chemo and then returned briefly. He was one of my favorites, not only in Spenser but also in some movies he made.

He was in a movie where he was the murderous husband/father - father of three boys whose mother/wife he murdered in Toms River, NJ - a true story. He also played a fellow who rescued a woman from an abusive and murderous husband. Sorry that it has been so long since I've seen those movies that I don't recall titles.

Urich was the first TV/Movie guy that I ever "fell" for, which I think I've said before. I loved him as the PI in Spenser and did, as I said, also like Brooks a lot.

I guess we could get off on a whole lot of parralles between Urich and Goren, but I hesitate. I do, however, see similar characteristics.

js

[Observer2]

Metella,

I apologize. I reacted to your comment and wrote what came into my head, without thinking it through. And I was out of line. I’ve gone back and deleted most of that post. I’ve tried to bring it into line with the very reasonable guideline you described – “...debate it, once & only on topic & then leave you to it.” Which is what I should have done in the first place.

I’m sorry that I came across as disrespectful of your ways of seeing and interpreting the world. I’ve become more aware, over time, of the things we have in common; so much so that I sometimes forget the ways we see things so differently. I’m sorry.

[Metella]

Awe, Observer, you didn't have to go back and delet anything; I just wanted to push back at you a little bit, I felt too much smoothering me so stepped up at you. Yes, we have a surprising amount of values and outlooks in common with such diverse personalities to express them with.

Yes, Robert U died of cancer, he had a remission & that was when he did a lot of true-story lifetime movies (a secret indulgence). I had a bit of a crush on him myself.

When I mention whines .... I'm mentioning the brooding looks, the 1/2 frowns, the negative comments I put that all together and classify is as Goren whines. I would NOT say that of others, because they would have a different personality and I would say it would take more than that from Eames for me to say that is a whine - for her, I think it would have to be a veral complaint in a pouty manner. Go back to Trisha's post for a more detailed reason of why I am not thrilled with the last two seasons & was a RabidFan immediately in season 1.