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Post by Metella on Feb 13, 2005 8:08:38 GMT -5
You are welcome Rom. Don't worry about me, I'll tell you if I'm ever pained by anything you say. Which so far has been NEVER. 12 hours until Logan hits the small screen agian ...
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Post by Techguy on Feb 13, 2005 14:11:05 GMT -5
I stayed out of the tributary side of this discussion, but Patcat's thoughtful and encouraging post prompted me to respond in kind.
To her remarks I would like to add this, and encourage the self-proclaimed paranoid to please lighten up and not take anything personally as directed at them if you are not mentioned in the post. From what I've seen here, members are not reluctant to speak their minds if a specific post or something in it is unacceptable. So unless and until this pattern changes, please, everyone, let's get back on track and let everyone take what's said here in the spirit it is intended--to continue a discussion or clarify a point.
And on a personal note, I don't have the time or inclination to respond to every post on every thread. It's just not realistic to expect this. For example, I don't watch most of the shows in the Other TV Talk section, so with the possible exception of Saturday Night Live or Star Trek, I don't have anything to say over there.
I also don't have time to reply to each and every post on all the threads I am interested in. My purpose in posting is to contribute to a discussion, clarify something I said, or some such thing. My purpose is not to up my post count, although that in itself is not a good or bad thing, it's just something I choose not to do.
And as for all the speculation about what Vincent D'Onofrio might or might not have done to bring about the Chris Noth hiring--who can say for sure what really happened? My reaction, when faced with a lot of unsubstantiated rumors is, that the truth lies somewhere in between the D'Onofrio-walks-on-water position and the D'Onofrio-is-an-SOB position. He is, after all, an imperfect human being just like the rest of us. He can have his good days and bad days, so anything someone has to say about him is going to depend on catching him on a particular day. Same as for the rest of us.
And finally, I want to say that I am not going to suggest any specific person to stay or leave. I'm not walking in that person's shoes, so it would be inappropriate for me to tell someone to stay or go. I do suggest, however, that someone consider the decision to stay or go very carefully rather than deciding in haste based on perceived bad feelings or insults. Feelings can come and go; so please give this board and its membership the benefit of the doubt before making a decision. Thinking things out is also very helpful BEFORE clicking on the Post icon. I believe it was Observer who said somewhere that it is better to think first before making comments. Her advice is well-placed and could be helpful to ease any remaining hard feelings on anyone's part.
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Post by domenicaflor on Feb 13, 2005 14:56:09 GMT -5
On the subject of Chris Noth returning to LOCI as a regular:
My biggest concern here is that the show's WRITING stays top quality. We seem to have a bit of a slack-off in Season 4, where some episodes were excellent and more seemed to be average. When Noth returns as Logan, even if he and his partner do not have the profiling abilities of Goren, I hope that they keep the show equally sharp and smart.
To me, this success of the change is squarely in the hands of Rene Balcer. Up to now, LOCI has been a show about Goren. Goren is the alter-ego of some of the criminals - the mirror image of good to their evil, while never forgetting the source of their pathology, nor the fact that his own life could have turned out differently. As members have commented here and on other boards, the past 3 1/2 years have shown us a journey - a journey of Goren solving crimes, but also revealing aspects of himself. Eames, Deakins, and Carver are critical to the show because they are foils to Goren that contrast with him, yet support him on his "journey". Eames in particular has a special role as his partner: to ground Goren when he needs grounding and to be his co-star in the acts they put on for the criminals and investigations. Now the show will shift focus AWAY from Goren, but will have to maintain its focus on the Criminals' INTENT, or else it will become an extension of the Mothership, just with high-profile criminals.
I believe that the casting of Logan's new partner is the second key to the success of this new venture. Maybe the new partner might have a special skill set to share? Perhaps someone who is specialized in computer forensics, financial crimes, or anti-terrorism? If what OintmentFly says comes to pass, we may have a strong female lead joining the team, and I am all for it if it follows the INTENT (yes, a pun!) of the original spin-off.
To be clear, I think Noth is fine as Logan; I have nothing against his work. But as other posters pointed out, Logan is not a cerebral cop, so I don't know how that fact will affect the storylines. I just hope that Logan can show some growth or add some creative contrasts to the partnering. In other words, what I DON'T want to see is a constant stream of Goren V. Logan or Logan V. New Partner head butting or testosterone matches. Some conflict is fine and welcome, but I don't want to see it become a "smart guy(lady)" versus "street smart guy/muscle guy" division all the time.
I wonder what impact that rank in the NYPD will play on the interaction. Is Mike Logan detective first grade? It will be interesting to see his interactions with Goren and Eames not just from a gender perspective, but from one of experience and seniority on the force. I think that part of the issue that plagued the character of G. Lynn Bishop was the fact that she was clearly a junior to Goren. They had a style clash, which we saw, but she could not act on some of her instincts because she had to politically defer to Goren as the senior detective but also had to kowtow to Deakins since she was politically motivated to move up in the ranks.
I found the published comment very interesting that D'Onofrio loves LOCI and hopes to be involved with it as long as it's on the air. I had no doubt that he enjoyed LOCI, but earlier interviews had really given the impression that he was definitely quitting after 5 years. If bringing in Noth and a new partner lightens his workload such that he can continue LOCI, maybe do a major film role or 2 minor roles per year, continue to have quality family time, and most importantly, to maintain good health, so be it. I would rather see 11 high-quality episodes of LOCI with D'Onofrio and Erbe in top form than 22 mediocre ones with them looking exhausted or merely "going through the motions".
In another recent interview, D'Onofrio mentioned that this new development is (paraphrase) " a really clever way for me to get some rest". Now, I take that comment two ways - one, it smacks a bit of the "party line" to me, as his comments regarding the infamous Elizabeth/Nicole fate vote. However, on the other hand I think he really appreciates the opportunity to rest and recharge.
I am also a fan of CSI, and I read an recent interview with William Petersen in US Magazine where Petersen admitted that he had to scale his workload back from 12 hours a day (and I think that was more like 15+ in the past) to 8-9 hours a day due to a medical scare last summer. Petersen is one of the producers of CSI, and even he realized he had to cut back in order to preserve his health. The way CSI accomplished that was to promote the character of Catherine Willows to supervisor and also to promote Greg Sanders to CSI, along with introducing a new CSI employee for Grissom. This enabled Petersen to scale back per episode, while giving more emphasis to Marg Helgenberger and other members of the cast. Now, fans may or may not be appreciative of the change to the show, but clearly it works to maintain the show's freshness within the original CSI formula - the show continues to garner high ratings and to win various popular awards. I state this to say, not all change is necessarily bad.
Regardless of any speculation about D'Onofrio's on-set behavior, the fact remains that his exhaustion caused the show to stop production. Time is money, to the tune of thousands of dollars. If the exhaustion were caused by D'Onofrio's moonlighting to finish production on his indie film "5 Minutes, Mr. Welles", then his bosses would be in their right to be very dismayed at the situation. (If my work were being affected by a second job, I would be upbraided by my superiors for sure.) Law and Order is a franchise and television is a big business. Dick Wolf and TPTB had to cover themselves due to D'Onofrio's illness and absence, and this casting addition is a "security blanket". It's also a safe-bet hedge against the competition from Desperate Housewives, and more importantly, from the new addition to their largest competing police-crime franchise: CSI New York.
I do not know the specifics of legal contracts for actors, but if D'Onofrio (and Erbe) have their total episodes reduced by half next season, I can only imagine that their pay will be similarly reduced, if they are paid per episode and not per season. Now, if they are making high salaries, that might not be as big a concern to them as it might be to the average Joe/Jane Doe who gets his/her salary halved.
This re-introduction of Logan to LOCI also opens up another opportunity. This may give Kathryn Erbe the chance to have a better life as well. As we know, she has 2 children, including a toddler, and this can give her more time at home. In her interviews regarding her pregnancy and the Samantha Buck replacement during maternity leave, she mentioned how great it was to only come in for a few scenes per week compared to the 12+ hour days. In addition, this might allow her to do some theatre, other television, or other film work in her off-times. It may also positively impact her husband Terry Kinney to do more theatre or film work as well. Both Erbe and Kinney are great actors (Kinney is also a director) and I would love to see more of both in other creative projects.
I am looking forward to the new episode with Noth. If this addition is handled well, and I stress that word WELL, then this could be a very positive step for LOCI. I do plan to watch ALL of the episodes next season, and to evaluate each on its own merit, not just one the face of its lead stars.
D.
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Post by NikkiGreen on Feb 13, 2005 17:40:05 GMT -5
... but Patcat's thoughtful and encouraging post... ...I don't have the time or inclination to respond to every post on every thread... To quote Teal'c..."Indeed". Well said Patcat, Techguy and 'Rebel' Dom
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Post by Patcat on Feb 13, 2005 22:43:14 GMT -5
Oh, gosh, gee, well, I really don't know what to say. My blushes (g) And thanks. Re. D's very eloquent post--amen. My concern about Logan is how well his character will fit in the LOCI world. Having just seen STRESS POSITION, I can say the writers have set up his return very nicely. Re. his grade--I would guess that Logan, after 10 years, might have worked up to second grade. My impression is that Major Case only has the highest grade of detectives (I would guess Bishop didn't have to be since she was a temp), and Logan could be promoted when he got there. Patcat
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Post by darmok on Feb 13, 2005 23:34:25 GMT -5
In the first season (first episode, I think), we learn that Goren is detective first grade. I don't think Eames' rank is ever mentioned.
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Post by Patcat on Feb 14, 2005 0:21:48 GMT -5
Possible best case scenario: Both Erbe and D'Onofrio express concern over their schedules. D'Onofrio has his fainting spells. Noth comes by for his guest spot. Everyone gets along. Someone (Wolf, Balcer, someone) gets idea of Noth as regular. D'Onofrio and Erbe like it, and even suggest splitting time. Noth likes it. Wahla! Problem solved. Of course, it's not that simple. Nice if it was. Patcat
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 14, 2005 1:09:05 GMT -5
Gorenrocks, "vancegate" *BIG GRIN*... thats hilarious Gorenrocks! I needed a chuckle tonight... thanks! *waves at Gorenrocks*
And heck yea Ointmentfly... I'm all for any info on who the female Holmes will be for Logan's partner! Especially after seeing tonights ep!
Any news?
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Post by BegToDiffer on Feb 14, 2005 21:32:26 GMT -5
Gosh, I think I aged a couple of years reading this discussion. I don't post very often and I'm usually right to the point, not elequent or long winded, so here's my opinion. The thought of Logan being in 11 episodes and Goren not being in 11 episodes means that once again, if anyone is looking for me, I'll be in the bathroom driving the porcelain bus. I see this as the beginning of the end for what I like. I enjoy Goren, so if he's not around for some shows, I don't plan to be either. I might check out all the fuss over those housewives, who knows? I have no interest in a regular dose of Logan, at least not on LOCI. Personally, I'm very sad.
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Post by Sirenna on Feb 15, 2005 21:43:14 GMT -5
I think this Goren-Logan split shift happened because Vincent was, well, exhausted.
As for whether or not it will work, for me a big part, really the essential aspect of the show is the intent portion - watching Goren and the villian plot and manipulate each other. This can only be lost with Logan's arrival on the scene because, as many of you have already pointed out, Logan is just a regular guy, not a great cop or even an honourable type of man. How can he be the guiding hero in a show whose ultimate premise rests on the strength of mind and character of its central player?
So I'm sad. Although I will be rewinding my tape sometime this week for a second viewing because I really didn't think the episode was at all bad, quite good actually.
As for the hissy fit thrown by Vance/Ointmentfly, et al, My spidey sense is picking up a hidden agenda between them which is boring. Although a shout-out to Trisha on that one ;D No-one tells it like she does! No, not even you, Metella!
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Post by Observer2 on Feb 16, 2005 1:54:40 GMT -5
I bowed out of this thread a while ago, and probably should have left it that way. But now I’ve read the darn thing, so I’ll throw my opinion in with the rest.
On most of the boards I post on, someone who never comes to the board except to say negative – and mostly unsubstantiated – things about the one of the main subjects of the board is considered a troll. So, yes, I was one of the people who was challenging to Oinmentfly when he first arrived – not insulting, but certainly challenging. As far as I could tell he had no interest in participating in the board other than to spread Page 6 rumors. He then disappeared, and didn’t return until he had a chance to say something else derogatory – and still unsubstantiated – about D’Onofrio. He has never shown any interest in participating in the board in any other way, so my opinion of him has not changed.
If Oinmentfly were a regular poster, who took an interest in other aspects of this board, and wanted to quote and agree with Page 6, I would simply disagree with him. But I haven’t seen any sign of that yet.
On the other hand, I would not even consider using the kind of personally insulting comment against him that Vance thought appropriate to use against other members of this board. And if I had been one of the people so insulted, I, too, would have felt hurt by the fact that people spoke up for Oinmentfly, but not for regular posters being directly and nastily insulted.
I was also pretty disgusted to see someone cheerfully explaining the insult, rather than pointing out that it wasn’t appropriate.
As for the substance of the rumors, regardless of what kind of person D’Onofrio is or isn’t, I personally find it extremely unlikely that someone of D’Onofrio’s size and power indulged in fistfights and not a peep was heard about it until D’Onofrio ended up in the hospital – but then, all of a sudden, there’s this “reliable” “inside” source who knows all about the fights – but was discretely keeping quite, up until then. Excuse me, but that stretches credibility beyond the breaking point.
Turning to the original subject of the thread, I’ll be interested to see who they cast as Logan’s partner, and how the stories are developed for the new team. Whether I can tolerate Logan’s character over time, in order to watch those episodes remains to be seen.
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 16, 2005 11:32:07 GMT -5
I was also pretty disgusted to see someone cheerfully explaining the insult, rather than pointing out that it wasn’t appropriate. As for the substance of the rumors, regardless of what kind of person D’Onofrio is or isn’t, I personally find it extremely unlikely that someone of D’Onofrio’s size and power indulged in fistfights and not a peep was heard about it until D’Onofrio ended up in the hospital – but then, all of a sudden, there’s this “reliable” “inside” source who knows all about the fights – but was discretely keeping quite, up until then. Excuse me, but that stretches credibility beyond the breaking point. Yes Observer, once it was brought to my attention what that insult really meant, I was pretty disgusted myself. Then I had to go off and cool down, and realized there is no need in getting in a huff over a "group" someone on a internet chat board included me in (no matter how inappropriate his spout was) Thats why I had to laugh about it with Gorenrocks and Metella -- one must laugh about stuff every now and then. Other wise you start drinking, eating too much chocolate and blow up like a Macey's Day Parade balloon... and what good does that do anyone?! *giggle...just pokin' fun* Anyways, Pat, Rom and Dom, Metella and Trish ( I think thats everyone...*scratches head*) Great posts...they brought a smile into my day, and what more can one ask for, for one's day? As for the D'Onofrio situation on and off the set...I guess in the end... I think we all have days when we can be great to be around -- and days when people might run screaming into the streets from us. I know I sure-as-heck have had days like that... and I wanted to chew on the first person to say something to me... and days when I was in the best mood ever! So Vincent is human, and therefore capable of having those same problems we all have. Personally, I'd have to be standing on that CI set at Chelse Pier day in and day out with all the cast and crew -- for me to truly know what goes on. Until that time, I'll continue to believe that he's human (and all that goes with that), and just watch the show.
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Post by Techguy on Feb 16, 2005 18:09:38 GMT -5
Speaking of Chris Noth and his Mike Logan character--USA is going to broadcast the L&O movie "Exiled" at midnight ET tonight.
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Post by EamesandGorenfan88 on Mar 27, 2005 15:15:19 GMT -5
Oh for crying out loud, I'm new and even *I* can see that having "Mr. Big" on L&O:CI is just NOT going to work! I mean, come on, Bobby Goren will be tough to replace anyway but with him? That's like replacing Anthony Hopkins with Matt Le Blanc in "Silence of the Lambs"!
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Shadow
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 77
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Post by Shadow on Mar 27, 2005 16:26:16 GMT -5
Eamesandgorenfan Now you are someone I can totally agree with here..I am a newbie too and feel exactly the same way you do.. And simply put.....CI is a showcase for Vincent D'Onofrio, and no one else can fill his shoes in this one, not even Chris Noth. If Vincent leaves, I fear the show will crumble, and I am not really looking forward to the 11 episodes with Detective Logan though I will watch with an open mind, so to speak. Understand, this is only MY take on the situation, and only MY opinion. I have always watched Criminal Intent because of Bobby Goren and his quirky ways......Take him away, and you take away a big part of my pleasure of watching this show. Shadow
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