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Post by urufu on Jan 16, 2006 22:14:25 GMT -5
it was an all around awsome episode! When he did the drop tac/wave thing, i thought he was showing the guy that he didn't have a tac at all and the guy just confessed for no reason like what happened at the end
maybe it was just my tv but did anyone else notice the VD's vocie kept of fading out?
It was wierd after i saw the beging i was thinking that him and nicole would get along great together and then when Goren said that he thought the guy new their names i was like "wow, this is going to be a nicole episode!"
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Post by Sirenna on Jan 16, 2006 22:17:33 GMT -5
I didn't read any spoilers - honest but I saw Nicole coming a mile away.
It was in the teaser:
"Detectives Goren (Vincent D'Onofrio) and Eames (Kathryn Erbe) encounter a gang of high-class, low-lifes led by Bernard (guest star Michael York), a slimy European with a taste for aging blondes and fine wine, who befriends, kills and robs tourists. Goren, however, is shocked to discover that the master murderer shares a connection to a deadly nemesis. The detectives try to out-maneuver the effete but effective Bernard -- and his posse of adoring women who kill for him -- until Goren's language skills help him zero in on a crime spree that spans the globe."
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Post by trisha on Jan 16, 2006 22:56:04 GMT -5
I saw it coming because of the connections made from reading snippets about the boyfriend showing up in an episode. Seeing him surrounded by blonds, and the tourist killing was what nailed it for me early on. It didn't diminish my enjoyment of the episode, though. I thought it was really good.
Cassie, I completely agree with you. I think seeing Bernard and how he manipulates, shed a lot of light on where Nicole picked up her tricks and also on her comments to Goren in Anti-Thesis about enjoying being under the thumb of her boyfriend. She surrendered her will to him just the way the sister did with the neck tie, and got to exact some revenge on her father through murdering other men. But, she felt no guilt because she transfered the guilt to Bernard as the one being in control.
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Post by darmok on Jan 17, 2006 0:24:50 GMT -5
I rewatched this one, and I tried to pay attention to the portion about the tack. When Goren opened his hand, it was empty; he showed the guy that he had bluffed.
I liked how Goren was persistent about figuring out the script. We saw him working on it 3 different times. No one else but Goren would have spent all that time figuring it out; Eames even said, "I'd rather know who." He then used the small portion of the script he had figured out as another bluff.
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Post by Techguy on Jan 17, 2006 0:53:51 GMT -5
I'm going to go with a minority opinion and say I didn't enjoy this episode as much as I had hoped. Maybe it was all the hype and buildup to the Nicole connection, but I came away feeling a bit cheated.
First and foremost--and this might be my own personal male perspective--I just don't get what the blonde posse of "Stepford Wives" see in Bernard. Creepy he is, but his charisma is completely lost on me. He comes across as a gross, arrogant, obnoxious slimeball. Maybe some of the female members, especially those with a psychology background, could enlighten me. How in the world could he exert so much control over the behavior of so many women? I am especially referring to the strangulation scene, which Bernard starts and then coaxes (orders?) one of the posse to finish. I do not see any physical or personal attributes in Bernard that would explain the women's compliant, automaton-like behavior.
And why would Russ the banker try to mimic Bernard's metrosexual practices of waxing his eyebrows and using tanning products? This scenario also is beyond my comprehension.
And...there are aspects of the plot that come across as ultra-convenient contrivances. The most notable is the deus ex machina, the carbon cartridge from an IBM selectric typewriter, just so we could see Det. Goren pore over the reverse letters to come up with the dead writer's script about Bernard. I knew Goren was a bit...odd, but this kind of scene left me wondering and concerned about his mental health.
Finally, I have no sympathy or empathy for Nicole whatsoever. She has had, and still has, choices. Murder is her game of choice, and she must be stopped. Sooner rather than later. Once and for all.
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Post by Cassie on Jan 17, 2006 6:05:43 GMT -5
--I just don't get what the blonde posse of women see in Bernard. Creepy he is, but his charisma is completely lost on me. He comes across as a gross, arrogant, obnoxious slimeball.
These girls have been with Bernard since they were young adults. They all knew of Nicole, and I bet they all had similar backgrounds as Nicole. They most likely came from abusive families and wanted to be loved. Deakins made some comment that " the Manson family was shopping at 5th Ave now". There was a lot of drugs and drinking going on in their lifestyle which helped to control them. I think you see Bernard more as an old man, that you just met but he's been with these girls now for almost 20 years. Think about the time line, in New York for 4 years, Thailland Prison for 8, thats 12 years.....plus the time they were together doing the killings. that would be pushing close to 20 years. What about Hugh Hefner, what does he have that Bernard dosen't? Money, and he's powerful.....I think he is just as gross and as arrogant as Bernard. but sure he dosent kill people... And why would Russ the banker try to mimic Bernard's metrosexual practices of waxing his eyebrows and using tanning products? This scenario also is beyond comprehension.
Russ wanted to meet "The Donald" and and be part of the "in crowd".....and thats what it was going to take to get him there....or at least he thought
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Post by Greeble on Jan 17, 2006 8:42:39 GMT -5
techguy: Who has sympathy for Nicole? No one does really, doesn't mean we want her caught! Goren is *so* much more fun to watch when she is about. When the Nicole character dies something in the Goren character will die too. I can't define it or explain it. I just feel that way. So I for one don't want the Nicole dying until Mr D'Onofrio leaves the show. Then they can stab her shoot her and blow her up under prison and throw away the key. As for Bernard, I don't know either, but I'm not blond
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Post by Metella on Jan 17, 2006 9:45:29 GMT -5
I think that there was no tack - that Goren showed and fluttered his empty hand at the guy to show he had been "got".
I have complained about that prevasive English accent too .... on HBO's Rome - they all speak in an Engish accent, when someone is from anywhere else - it has become a pitiful fall back to just have the actors speak in an English accent to show they are not "Americans" I think that is what went on here. Many Americans just soak it up and nod - yep - not an American; but the CI audience is just a little more discerning than that & it was enough to pull some of us fans out of the story for a bit ..... not a good thing. Now, would be a call from a director? Or a choice from an actor?
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Post by trisha on Jan 17, 2006 10:07:04 GMT -5
On Techguy's question, I agree with Cassie again, and add that the women also had an intense desire to belong, and become people of power.
Metella, I believe the accent was the writer's idea because it was a plot point. Bernard's odd pronunciations were signals to a discerning ear like Goren's (and Mimi's) that Bernard was definitely not English, and while his lineage maybe from France, he certainly wasn't raised there. All of his accents are muddled, and it's another funny little throw back to Nicole. She modeled her accents from Bernard's, and they were a give away to Goren on her, as well.
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Post by BegToDiffer on Jan 17, 2006 12:02:52 GMT -5
Will someone please explain how after all this time, they suddenly were able to come up with an old photo of Nicole Wallace (with Bernard), when they couldn't find one to show her rich husband when they were trying to warn him that she was a killer? ?
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Jan 17, 2006 13:16:22 GMT -5
I really liked this episode, this time around I refrained from picking it apart in my head, I just sat back, enjoyed it & was much happier. It was nice to see the old Goren show himself again, splitting the cast was a brilliant move on Mr. Wolf's part. Though Viince did sound like he was fighting a cold didn't he ? I hope he gets well soon. In POI, Nicole said (in 3rd person) that she liked being under the thumb of her 'French' boyfriend & we have also known Nicole to pretend to be from different countries.. wonder where she learned it from? I wouldn't put it past Bernard to know how to know how to pull that off.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Jan 17, 2006 13:54:59 GMT -5
Will someone please explain how after all this time, they suddenly were able to come up with an old photo of Nicole Wallace (with Bernard), when they couldn't find one to show her rich husband when they were trying to warn him that she was a killer? ? No, the real question is why couldn't they find these photos and files in Anti-Thesis to prove Nicole wasn't Elizabeth Hitchens to put her in prison in the first place?
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Post by NicoleMarie on Jan 17, 2006 13:58:42 GMT -5
I just don't get what the blonde posse of women see in Bernard. Maybe some of the female members, especially those with a psychology background, could enlighten me. I believe the women were drawn to his power and wanted that power too. I don't so much as see them as weak and under his control, rather more evil like him and liking the choices to kill. Like Nicole. They are just as evil as Nicole.
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Post by Techguy on Jan 17, 2006 14:11:33 GMT -5
the real question is why couldn't they find these photos and files in Anti-Thesis to prove Nicole wasn't Elizabeth Hitchens to put her in prison in the first place? Exactly. Why is it that investigation of Nicole, her background and past activities, has become more finely tuned with each subsequent episode about her? Because in order to drag on the worn-out Nicole saga, new developments suddenly arise that would have been extremely beneficial to get the goods on her way back when. Enough already.
Another example--the one Metella mentions. It does seem that Goren and Eames have a rather relaxed attitude to the poisoning of Bernard. Once they realize it must have been Nicole's doing, they almost seem to adopt a casual "she's-at-it-again" attitude. No effort to try to seal off the building before she escapes. Nothing. This also does not make much sense to me.
BTW, thanks to those who took the time to explain the obsession of the women with Bernard. I still don't understand or accept it completely. I am a firm believer in taking responsibility for your choices. No matter how awful the childhoods or backgrounds of these women, sooner or later they have to wake up and smell the coffee, that is, the stench that permeates Bernard. If, as Trisha suggests, the intent of the women was to attain power by hitching their wagons to Bernard, the cruel irony is, the exact opposite occurred because they ended up disempowering themselves in order to stay in his good graces. This might sound harsh, but I believe there is no excuse, no rationalization, to justify their "Stepford Wives" compliant acceptance of, and participation in, criminal acts--most especially cold-blooded murder.
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psychochik
Silver Shield Investigator
Ha-Ha
Posts: 191
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Post by psychochik on Jan 17, 2006 14:30:55 GMT -5
I Just a thought but, maybe those Nicole-in-training's will finish Nicole off. That would be awesome !! That would be better than her killing Goren in the end. I want to see the ending for Goren to not be a violent one, unless of course its him killing off Nicole, then I'd be completely fine with it. I really need to see this episode again cuz there are some parts I know I missed. USA needs to show it on a night that I am home. SOON !!!!
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