angua
Detective
Posts: 281
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Post by angua on Apr 1, 2010 14:53:14 GMT -5
Okay, I'm calmer now. I appoligize to anyone I might have offended. But I do have the right to disagree and try to convert the unbelievers, don't I? Maherjunkie, I think the reason Eames seems a bit cold might have been because she was mad at him, for two reasons. One, he went off to the hangar on his own, without telling her. Two, even she might suspect he killed Ross. How sad would that be? She was closer to Ross, and if she even felt a twinge of doubt about Bobby's role, it's really a great show of love that she didn't take his head off. Also, Maherjunkie, how did you like the "You're not our boss" speech? I thought it was his best performance ever, so moving, and don't know how to handle someone else thinking little of it. But that's my problem, huh? Anyway, if I've pushed buttons, I appologize.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 1, 2010 15:17:05 GMT -5
Oh, I gotta disagree with that second point Anqua. (But, I hope politely...) I can't believe Alex would believe Bobby could kill anyone in cold blood, let alone Ross.
Patcat
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Post by maherjunkie on Apr 1, 2010 15:17:15 GMT -5
I liked it. He showed some fire.
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angua
Detective
Posts: 281
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Post by angua on Apr 1, 2010 16:11:59 GMT -5
Oh, I gotta disagree with that second point Anqua. (But, I hope politely...) I can't believe Alex would believe Bobby could kill anyone in cold blood, let alone Ross. Patcat I meant his actions might have gotten Ross killed. If Eames felt like that, no wonder she was a bit cold. Personally, I didn't have any problems with that line. I will say it was a vey confusing episode, but in my mind it could have been so much worse.
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Post by quietfireca on Apr 1, 2010 16:30:01 GMT -5
This is the last time you will ever see his lean. I'm very sorry if you feel manipulated--a sentiment I dont' understand in this context--but I saw it as a gift from VDO to his fans. Yes, it was a parting gift from a much-loved character. We won't see it again. And I don't care if it was set up. It was a very sweet gesture. And I doubt we'll see another interrogation by Goren.
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angua
Detective
Posts: 281
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Post by angua on Apr 1, 2010 16:37:32 GMT -5
This is the last time you will ever see his lean. I'm very sorry if you feel manipulated--a sentiment I dont' understand in this context--but I saw it as a gift from VDO to his fans. Yes, it was a parting gift from a much-loved character. We won't see it again. And I don't care if it was set up. It was a very sweet gesture. And I doubt we'll see another interrogation by Goren. Oh, one more! Please just one!
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 1, 2010 19:30:06 GMT -5
No, it didn't. They were following Ross and photographed him BEFORE Goren went to the hangar. And they handed Ross the shot of him and the FBI agent. THAT's what blew his cover, not Goren. We're only supposed to think that now, and Goren's supposed to think that, because he blames himself for Ross' death. Thanks for clearing that up. It was confusing, and I really need to rewatch this episode. I'm glad that Bobby is not to blame for Ross' death. Poor baby doesn't need that guilt. I assumed that the lean was written into the plot by the writers (Goren does the lean "here."). If not, than it is indeed a sweet gesture by VDO.
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 1, 2010 19:52:17 GMT -5
Oh, but Bobby did ask...he did it silently. And Ross answered..."I can't tell you anything." - silently. The communication in their eyes and facial expressions said it all.
And MJ...oh that fire! That was the moment when my eyes blurred with tears.
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 1, 2010 19:54:07 GMT -5
tjara: As you know, I don't blame Vincent for not wanting to do TV again. It's all about money and ratings. They don't give a crap about creativity. The only place I could see him doing something for TV is on a premium network like HBO. Much more room to move there...
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 1, 2010 20:12:06 GMT -5
I assumed that the lean was written into the plot by the writers (Goren does the lean "here."). If not, than it is indeed a sweet gesture by VDO. Well, here is where you've confused me because the first thing you said sounded to me as though you blamed Vincent himself for that lean, as though he was the one responsible for you feeling "manipulated" because of the homage to the old Goren lean. And the second quote...well now it's a sweet gesture and there is no mention of feeling manipulated. Maybe I should have just stuck with "never mind" but what the hell. The lean was there and it was a good thing. A right thing. Written or not. And Vincent is not the one responsible for this mess, or for the writing not being stellar (in some folks opinion), or anything else. I saw the lean for what it was...a sweet gesture to the loyal fans who have stuck with, and loved the character of Goren for eight seasons. No manipulation intended or implied. I hate to think anyone actually took it that way.
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 2, 2010 7:08:06 GMT -5
Well, here is where you've confused me because the first thing you said sounded to me as though you blamed Vincent himself for that lean, as though he was the one responsible for you feeling "manipulated" because of the homage to the old Goren lean. And the second quote...well now it's a sweet gesture and there is no mention of feeling manipulated. Maybe I should have just stuck with "never mind" but what the hell. The lean was there and it was a good thing. A right thing. Written or not. And Vincent is not the one responsible for this mess, or for the writing not being stellar (in some folks opinion), or anything else. I saw the lean for what it was...a sweet gesture to the loyal fans who have stuck with, and loved the character of Goren for eight seasons. No manipulation intended or implied. I hate to think anyone actually took it that way. Oh OBC...why must you do this? I felt manipulated by the gesture. I expressed that emotion on this board. At this point, I'm honestly not sure who is to blame. Can we leave it at that? That being said, I do plan on re watching this episode later today. Maybe it will clear some things up for me. And I am eagerly awaiting next week. I do pray that Goren is not suspended or fired, but uncovers this diabolical plan that gives HIM a promotion that makes him choose to leave Major Case. That leaves Eames resigning. That's how I would end things.
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 2, 2010 7:26:06 GMT -5
Well, DJ, all I can say is...you asked. And I knew it was coming, so I wasn't surprised. Which is why in the beginning I changed my mind and said "never mind". FWIW, I think it's Goren who is fired...insubordination. And Eames resigns. Guess we'll find out if they choose to flip that around next week.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 2, 2010 8:30:46 GMT -5
I thought the lean was a nice gesture to the fans. My two bits.
Someone else observed that when Eames is upset, she gets angry. That's certainly true as she deals with Ross' death. She's shocked, she almost breaks down, then she gets angry and gets busy. I think her comment about Bobby not torturing himself is inspired partly by that anger, partly by the fact she doesn't believe his actions had anything to do with Ross'd death (something I believe), and partly by her wanting him not to beat himself up. She knows him well enough that she's aware of the downward spirals he can get into.
I think Bobby and Alex are both at a point in their lives and careers that they stay with the NYPD not primarily because of the job or their devotion to the NYPD (that may be completely gone) or their senses of service to others (although that last element is still important). I think they stay because they feel they owe it to each other (and I don't mean this in a romantic way). But if one of them goes, the other will be gone too. It's why Bobby had to come back and why he stays with the NYPD.
Patcat
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Post by mccaffrey on Apr 2, 2010 8:53:19 GMT -5
As we have come to the flnal hours of Goren after eight years, I'll just throw in my opinion.
The small glimpses of Classic Bobby were at best bittersweet: the hangar craziness, the scene-of-the-crime confrontation with the FBI at Ross's death - all reminders to me of why we had fallen in love with Goren back in the day. The last sad fizzes of the sparks that used to fly.
Which brings me to The Lean. Such a tired pantomime of the first Lean. Look, I don't know that I personally felt manipulated, but I know exactly what DonnaJo is driving at. To me it was charmingly sad, perfunctory schtick: VDO's 'sweet nod to the fans' sounds hopelessly wishful and romanticized to me.
Whether it was VDO's idea or the director's or Walon Green's or DW's or the key grip's, I read it as little hommage to the famous first quirk that has ever since been Goren's trademark.
The Lean deserves a nod to itself, I think. It was the Eureka! moment for Rene Balcer, who says it was just exactly when VDO did the Gumby bend that he knew the show would be a hit. And we know that The Lean was a purely reflexive move on VDO's part, just getting in the face of an actor who wouldn't meet his gaze. That one incredibly weird and lucky stroke of instinct, of unscripted ( arrogant, in a way) reaction became a signature.
Ironic, I think, that this last Lean was so tentative, so creaky, so un-quirky, so removed from that first hilarious, supple flop. To me it is an appropriate marker of the End of Goren Days. And perhaps not a moment too soon.
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 2, 2010 17:49:14 GMT -5
Well rest easy then. You only have one more episode to suffer through.
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