9:01- "Loyalty Part 1" 2010-03-30

[trisha]

Very nice post, Lovesong. I agree with much of it. I did like the lean, though. Yeah, it was a tired looking version of the original lean, and this is a tired looking version of the original Bobby. But it was a nod to that old version and a nod to the fans, I think.

I will reserve final judgement on this one until I see the second half, but so far I found it more enjoyable than not, particularly Jefff's scenes.

[SarahIvy]

So well put, AL. You captured why I just don't really post here anymore.

At the end of the day it's a TV show. One which has been *very* enjoyable to discuss for a very long time. When that discussion becomes intolerant and personal the enjoyment of sharing ideas is sucked right out of it.

Despite some of my quibbles w/ part 1, I'm very curious where part 2 will take me tonight!

[lovesong]

"Eames was the only one who seemed to care? I don't think we were watching the same show, but oh well..."

Yes, I was unclear. The actress playing the role of Eames was the only one who seemed to care. You don't like the expression "phoning it in." I apologize. However, just off the top of my head, I can not think of another that summarily implies the same things, i.e. a lackluster performance devoid of interest, effort, professionalism and entertainment value. I'll think about it, and in the meantime gladly accept suggestions.

[DonnaJo]

Apr 6, 2010 11:55:31 GMT -5 SarahIvy said:

Despite some of my quibbles w/ part 1, I'm very curious where part 2 will take me tonight!

My sentiments as well, Sarah. I'm nervously excited about what befalls Goren and Eames. I just pray that the fans are taken into consideration. At least they don't die. But if Goren is kicked off the force, that will be very distressful to me. I can't stand the idea that the Chief Of Detectives wins in his quest to ruin Bobby.

Lovesong, I agree about Eames. Her performance so far in "Loyalty" is the best. Also enjoyable is the performance of the interim Captain (funny accented dude from "On Fire.")

If the promo is accurate, I think VDO has indeed saved his best for last. There was fire and emotion from him in those scenes. I hope he gives us a performance worthy of his talent. As die hard fans, I think we deserve it.

[lovesong]

"Also enjoyable is the performance of the interim Captain (funny accented dude from "On Fire.") "

He was also very enjoyable as a detective on Showtime's Dexter. He may still be on it, I stopped watching. I still scratch my head about accent though. I don't hear a funny accent at all. I just hear a touch of Latino. I suspect his first language, or home/primary language, was Spanish but that he learned English from native speakers very early.

I have always been pretty indifferent to the actress that played Eames, but she was very good in this episode. She demonstrated a lot of nervous energy that seemed to suit the situation quite well.

Now, about the C of Ds. Why the disdain? He never did anything to Goren that Goren didn't deserve. Imagine having such a position with the commensurate responsibilities and having to deal with belligerent, insubordinate and for all appearances, mentally unstable, *armed* officers. The viewer knows Goren isn't going to shoot up a school yard, but the chief couldn't know that. It's hard to blame him for attempting to manage his employees and ensure public safety. Newspaper headlines have done a thorough job of covering instances of the failure of the NYPD (and other PDs) to police their own, lol.

I won't be able to watch tonight's thrilling conclusion of the very special episode until next week. So until then....

[Patcat]

Ah, but the Chief of D's clearly favored a detective--Patrick Copa--who abandoned his partner and post for quick sex with a prostitute and who was on the job in spite of a condition that could've threatened the safety of himself, other cops and civilians. The Chief should've commended Goren for revealing that, and instead he attacked Goren.

I agree that Goren needed to be disciplined for his actions in PURGATORY, but if he felt he had the support of his department, he might not have taken those actions. And part of me thinks Goren might have been right when he said he thought the Chief might be hoping that he'd be killed during his undercover assignment.

Patcat

[outerbankschick]

I agree, Patcat. Det. Copa was in dereliction of duty and lied about it. Goren knew something was not right and he pursued that. Instead of backing him up, the Chief told Quinn's family that the detective on the case set the man's killer free and that he was a "whack job". Yeah, that's real professional behavior! If my boss had said something like that about me, I'd be able to go to HER boss and have her disciplined.

And lovesong, whatever you call it, I don't see it the same way. Enough said.


Edited to add this little gem from Chimera (with her permission) about Goren on another board:

This is what is so unique. The character has truly evolved
in a realistic fashion. Instead of being filled, lifted, styled, and
dyed to look like a clone of himself, Goren has retained the
scars of his injuries.

I totally agree. That's the beauty I see.

[DonnaJo]

If I were to empathize with the Chief - I'm sure that over the years, Goren's eccentricities and odd behavior have been what the C of D's has heard most about from the other cops. Even Ross was quick to jump on that when he first became Captain, not Goren's 95% arrest/conviction rate. Most puzzling. So when Goren questioned Copa, it confirmed what the Chief had heard about this "whack job" Detective.

However, what bothers me is that when Goren proves to be correct about both Copa's vision and the real killer of the Detective, the Chief never apologizes, and Goren is never redeemed in his eyes. That's the sore point I have with him.

OBC, tell Chimera that her comments are beautiful. I envy both of you. I mean that. Try as I might, I just can't see the character that way. I wish I could. I don't see VDO deliberately playing Goren with scars. I see VDO bored and tired of the role, and having a hard time hiding it. I hope tonight he brings back some of the excitement of old he used to have. Then we'll be in for a treat.

[Techguy]

OBC, I second DJ's comments, as I see what Mr. D'Onofrio has done with the Goren character for the past few years the same way she does. I appreciate yours and Chimera's input, but Goren left the building years ago so his departure now is, in a way, anti-climatic for me. Goren left in mind, soul, and spirit quite a while ago; all that's left now is his physical departure to make his exit final and complete. Having said that, I wish both the character and the actor all the best in the future as CI moves forward.

[outerbankschick]

Given the fact that there has been so much pounding of that exact POV here, I am not surprised you both find it hard to see it any other way. When something is repeated and repeated and repeated, it tends to stick with you and sometimes it can even color your view.

I suppose I am seeing things through the prism of a brilliant actor who was enjoying the journey of his character. Warren Leight was wanting to go deeper and Vincent was on board, and they did it. Whether or not everyone likes it...well, I think we all know that some didn't like it, however there are vast numbers of folks that did.

And watching his interviews, I don't know how anyone can think he "didn't care". He said himself that he enjoyed the episodes in the later seasons...starting with S4...when things began to get more personal. Those were his favorites, he said.

And there is where the L&O line is drawn. TOS lost me after Lenny left. I was bored with the strict procedural and longed to see more of the character's lives. When I got into CI, it was such a different kind of show...it wasn't a procedure-driven show, but one that focuses on the psychology and psychopathy of the criminal mind. And then I wanted to know more about these detectives who made this world tick. And when I was finally rewarded, I was happy to take the ride with them.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this journey and for me, it doesn't really end. I could go on writing Bobby for a long time, in many different ways. I have eight seasons to enjoy, plus these last two episodes, and Goren and Eames are two characters that will always be with me. The two most real people on TV. Not flashy, not fancy. But real and scarred and human. That's how I prefer them.

[trisha]

OBC, while I can see where people can be swayed by hearing an opinion eloquently stated, especially if said opinion is repeated, I don't think that is what has happened with DJ or TG, and it's not what happened with me, either.

With all due respect to you and Chimera, that quote is exactly what I hate about today's Goren. To my mind, the writers and VDO took a character who was a survivor of a traumatic childhood -- the type of neglect and abuse that utterly ruins most peoples chances of becoming anything like the brilliant and brave solider for the forces of justice we had in Robert Goren at the beginning of the series. They took that survivor, that example of strength and tenacity and resilliance, and they broke him, little by little, until nothing remained but a seriously unhealthy looking, sad-sack, borderline nut-job. It would be really, really great to see that survivor once more before the end, but like TG, I've given up all hope at this point. I guess we'll see what will be soon.

[outerbankschick]

I don't see it that way...but then I myself am a survivor. Yes, he had strength, and then when you see the later seasons, you can see that the strength came from being able to avoid the painful things he didn't want to deal with. At least, that is how it was written.

I suppose that my own experience with abuse makes me see this differently. Because broken doesn't mean weak. Sometimes you have to break to find your strength. It was this brilliance that I see and maybe it's because I know exactly - and I do mean exactly - how it feels.

Sometimes it is the breaking down of the veneer, the slipping off of the mask, that reveals the strongest heart beneath. Sometimes it is the destruction of your walls that enables you to live. Sometimes it is the exposing of your soul that allows you to truly heal, instead of hiding your pain behind a mask of an arrogance born of insecurity and a tenacity born of the need to keep your mind busy to avoid your pain. That's the beauty that I see.

Sad sack and unhealthy? Good thing you didn't see me about five years ago. You'd have thought the same thing about me. And if you saw me ten years ago...well I'd have looked like the "old Goren" to you.

[trisha]

When did he ever avoid what was painful, OBC? When he alone cared for his mother throughout his childhood and as an adult, as well? When he was attacked by Nicole Wallace and had his reputation ruined? When he confronted all those bad daddies?

Sorry, but I cannot agree. He smashed through some terrible blows all the way up until Warren Leight took over. Then he was pounded into the ground.

[outerbankschick]

Really? A person can't function normally and hide what they truly feel? I think they can...and I have. I don't think what was written into later seasons went against character at all.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.