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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 21, 2008 10:49:23 GMT -5
A good point about the raising of the shade, Patcat. I also noticed it right away & wondered if a sniper would take it upon himself to take out Marla, or is there a special signal that Goren would give if he felt it was necessary? In films, the SWAT team sniper usually makes the call himself. And in "Pilgrim," it appeared that the SWAT team sniper on the roof made the call to take out the suicide bomber Goren was fighting with. Both Goren & Eames looked surprised when he took a bullet between the eyes.
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Post by tjara on Jan 30, 2009 9:47:51 GMT -5
Ok - now I'm officially nuts. I just read all 14 pages of this very interesting discussion.
This episode did not stand out to me when I first saw it a week ago yesterday. But when I went back to editing it before burning it onto a DVD, it caught my attention.
First off, the story seems to be "too crazy to be true" - I couldn't shake the feeling I was watching a satire - but in the end that was what made it good. I didn't figure out who the killer was ( I had no promo to ruin the story for me until the end. The MIL-Killer-scenario would've been very interesting too, because oh what fun would Goren have had stripping her of her attitude... But the story worked for me the way it was, too. Marla felt lonly, out of place, akward, no friends, no parents, unwanted and unloved. She was bound to have a fight with her MIL because her husband would never move out and leave his mother alone, so she had to deal with her. Also, somepne way back said he was "prominently absent" or something to that effect, and I think that was so on purpose. Marla probably wasn't so sure if he'd choose her over her mother - and she probably knew she had no way of getting custody right for Henry if there were a divorce...
Season 7 still strikes me with somewhat detached acting, but yet I liked the ep on the whole. It was nice how they used Ross to be able to lay out the case for us and his remark about his grandkids was just to funny... and yet a reminder, that those with some of the more "dangerous" jobs that are the glue to our society, don't really get the good stuff.
No comment on the Bigfoot remark, that was hilarious... and I can't believe we had suits & ties & clean shaven for a whole episode. I wonder whether this change in attire in fact is supposed to show us some of his better days vs. some of his not so good days.
I also very much enjoyed the aria/gunpoint scene. First I thought it was flat, but just when I thought he'd acutally comfort her, bang there he pushes her up against the wall... I think the aria wasn't as strong as the one in phantom, but the scene played out better differently. In Phantom I always thought it was somewhat of a stretch how Bobby entered the motel room and then maneuvered himself in between the perp and his children - talking to someone he hadn't seen before (!). That played out way better in that ep - he even knew Marla and had already established a sort of "friendly" bond with her. Also, I liked the attention payed to details, like him opening the shades. I especially liked the last sentence, because he did the same thing in phantom - he gives us a glimpse of the anger and stress being relieved. In Phantom he first looks dizzy, and then bursts into anger as he realizes there were only two bullets (one for each child). Here, he is in disdain about how self-centered Marla is, and you can just see his anger flash when he says that last sentence...
The only thing I thought somewhat akward was him picking up the possible murder weapon without gloves or a cloth when it fell out of the diaper bag.
@donnajo
I guess it depends on the exact situation, but I think snipers make their own call, usually because they aim to kill. They have to, because just injuring the perp is potentionally dangerous to the hostages. Only injured, that guy could go about shooting them up... so if the police officers aren't wired up or if there's some agreement, I'd guess the snipers make their own call.
On the whole "New vs. Old LOCI discussion"...
I think LOCI is suffering from a problems that all long-time shows suffer.
First - there are only so many stories to tell, and if you believe some literaries, there's like a set of very few, that get rehashed all the time. I guess it also depends on the "level of abstraction" you want to put it - meaning, how many of the details you want to take away. Like this ep could be summond up to "crazy mother wants love and attention" - or "crazy mother wants the best for her child" - now such simple summaries can be applied to many eps, can't they?
Second - Character development. LOCI left us in the dark quite a while and only slowly filled in the blanks to the characters personal life - but at some point you want to dig deeper and to explore more. That's fine, but it becomes more difficult if you resolve a problem that has accompanied a character for a while. So in that sense, letting Frances Goren die or resolving Joe Eames murder is difficult. It can make good shows, but it leaves you with a "blank" on the character. Such things are especially troublesome if they are repeated over and over. And I think that's somewhat were LOCI is headed. To make clear what I mean I might borrow from a different show - Bellisario's JAG. Two very defining elements for the main character Harm were is inability to fly jets due to night blindness and his MIA father. Both issues were resolved in seasons 5 and 3 repectively, and in the long run it hurt the show because Harm resolved so much of what defined him, but didn't acquire new defining traits. So I guess the art is how to develop a character without stripping them of their essentials. I think Goren has been stripped of a lot (mother, brother, Nicole, parts of his quirkiness...), accompanied by a darker demeanour and having him "on the edge" a lot more and I hope they don't tip him into the abyss.
Something that I miss a little is his "class act". I guess they had to let it evolve in the course of the show or otherwise it would get boring, but I'd still like to see it now and then. In some of the earlier episodes that I now watch on DVD you never know how much Goren acts and how much is actually him. We don't see that as much anymore... also, he seems to be less passionate - but if we assume he's almost suffering from a status close to depression or something similiar, that would actually be true to form. It seems though that they've exchanged some of his quirkiness with his lonliness. Early eps actually hinted at the fact that he did have outside hobbies, friends and intrestes. Also, he was made out the be somewhat of a ladies man (we met Irene and had two references in Badge). That has changed, and I think they have to give him back some of his. Because Bobby Goren, while married to the job, only can live if there's something else in his life than his job. It's actually quite believeable that at a time where his mother was very sick and for the aftermath he would be withdrawn, but he has to come out of his rabbit hole now.
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Post by Patcat on Jan 30, 2009 10:21:16 GMT -5
See, this is why it's good to have new blood(g). Thanks for your comments, Tjara. I have hopes that watching Bobby come out of the rabbit hole will make for a good story.
Patcat
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Post by quietfireca on Jan 30, 2009 13:02:00 GMT -5
It's actually quite believeable that at a time where his mother was very sick and for the aftermath he would be withdrawn, but he has to come out of his rabbit hole now. The death of a parent is one of life's passages. Follow that with a very bad judgment call trying to help his nephew. Numb would be how I'd describe his behaviour since. (very appropriately played by VDO) And now, knowing someone who was once very special to you being responsible (indirectly?) for the death of your brother (and explaining it to you) is a different sort of crushing event, which is where we left Goren. We may have to drag him kicking and screaming out of that rabbit hole. We don't want him to get too comfortable down there!
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Post by Patcat on Jan 30, 2009 13:35:51 GMT -5
I'm not sure it was a bad judgment call trying to help his nephew. I think that Goren felt he had no other options. Ross certainly wasn't helping him, and based on the Department and the Chief of Detective's reaction to Goren's actions during AMENDS, I'm sure Goren felt he wouldn't get any help from the Department. I actually think his reaching out to get help from Eames was a major step forward for Bobby.
Patcat
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Post by tjara on Jan 30, 2009 14:15:41 GMT -5
I think the question isn't if he should've helped, but how.
oh jeez, I didn't realize we left him in such a bad state. Oh my, then I hope he gets to recover and then bounce back. I know it won't be the "old" Bobby Goren, but a little less numb and a little more involved would be nice never the less.
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eva
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 86
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Post by eva on Jan 30, 2009 14:36:47 GMT -5
I'm not sure it was a bad judgment call trying to help his nephew. I think that Goren felt he had no other options... I agree here. Just remember Eames' quote when she went to Ross because she hasn't heard from Bobby- "He thought ... that your hands were tied." The nephew was/ is all what he has now. Goren to me always was someone to whom family values are very important, even though his own family was far away from perfect. He has given up on his brother- but not even that, though we see him rolling his eyes to Franks questioning about his mother financial status in "Endgame" and he refuses to talk to his brother in this episode at first, he's still trying to do something. To bond again somehow- and now, all of a sudden there is a nephew, a new family member, someone who belongs to him. He feels responsible for him and wants to prevent him from taking the same road his father did. Plus, he knew something terrible was happening in this prison. Donny was in danger and Goren sure hadn't the patience to sit down, wait and let other people take care of it. Especially since he may had have the feeling his (and Donnys) words didn't count. He is the whack job and his nephew is not only a prisoner, but- if I remember correctly- had been put in the mental ward (i.e.: crazy like his uncle, like the whole family in fact). Are we being too off topic here? It actually belongs to another thread, I hope it's okay I answered here
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Post by quietfireca on Jan 30, 2009 16:59:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure it was a bad judgment call trying to help his nephew. I think that Goren felt he had no other options. Ross certainly wasn't helping him, and based on the Department and the Chief of Detective's reaction to Goren's actions during AMENDS, I'm sure Goren felt he wouldn't get any help from the Department. I actually think his reaching out to get help from Eames was a major step forward for Bobby. Patcat Very good point Patcat. I guess I was thinking about Eames comment about self-inflicted wounds - if he hadn't gone to Tates then he would have saved himself a lot of grief. I guess that's where my thoughts about bad judgement call comes from. But, of course, she was part of that Tates plan..... Okay, I must be missing something in my thinking.... Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by outerbankschick on Jan 30, 2009 18:12:55 GMT -5
QFC, you grab one arm, I'll grab the other. We can maneuver him out of that hole very, very carefully.
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Post by tjara on Jan 30, 2009 19:03:01 GMT -5
Sounds like a plan! *cheers qfc & ob*
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Post by DonnaJo on Jan 31, 2009 7:43:44 GMT -5
What a great post, Tjara. Very insightful comments. and I can't believe we had suits & ties & clean shaven for a whole episode. I wonder whether this change in attire in fact is supposed to show us some of his better days vs. some of his not so good days. "Please Note...." was the last episode competed before the WGA writers strike here in the US. Either end of November or December 2007. My dates aren't accurate. All production stopped until March/April. When LOCI started filming again, Goren had stopped wearing his suit & tie. The only other time he wears one is at the end of "Untethered."
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Post by tjara on Jan 31, 2009 7:52:17 GMT -5
And, according to screen-shots (I havn't seen the ep), Selfmade. It's still fascinating how his looks change from ep to ep...
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Jan 31, 2009 8:06:10 GMT -5
Selfmade aired before the Kissinger and Untethered, didn't it?
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Post by DonnaJo on Jan 31, 2009 8:17:12 GMT -5
Selfmade aired before the Kissinger and Untethered, didn't it? Correct. And there is the date an episode airs, and the date it is actually filmed. "Please Note" was aired out of sequence. It should have been aired first, after the strike, but it wasn't.
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Post by tjara on Jan 31, 2009 8:21:30 GMT -5
Aaaah, you beat me to it, Donna. I just checked production numbers, too.
Still funny how he changes. I like the Gil Grissom look, though *evil grin*
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